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  1. #1
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    Sorry if I spelled it wrong. Have any of you heard about what is going on in schools with the Pledge of Alligance (sp?)? Some kid did not want to say it, apparently the teacher made him/her and now the parents are making a big production out of it and wants it emliminated from schools. It is now in the California Supreme Court for ruling. It was that it was Against the Constitution. All because of the words "Under God". Apparently the student did not believe in God. When I was in school you had a choice of whether or not to say it. If you did not believe in the "Christian God" you could just "sit it out".

    I think students should be given a choice.

    I know religion is a VERY TOUCHY subject, just wanted to voice my opinion.
    So many ideas, so little time. I need a part-time job to support my craft habit.

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  3. #2
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    I also know religion is a touchy subject but I figured I'd voice the Constitutional Rights side of me...
    When the Supreme Court declared that the Pledge is unconstitutional, they were correct from a "Constitutional Aspect". Because the "Under God" part is not defined and there is a separation of church and state in the US, it does go against the constitution. However, I am not saying that this is right. I just thought I would clarify what the court's decision was based on.

    ImaginationHost
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  4. #3
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    The phrase "Under God" could mean ( i dont want to sound as if im attacking religion or anything if i mess up ) the christian god, the muslim god,the jewish god, it really applies to ALL religions, so it shouldn't be that big of deal and saying it's "prejidice" (sp?). Yes, the teacher was wrong for making the student say it, but it still stands that "under god" means the god you belive in and worship.
    AJ (A.K.A. Figaro)
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  5. #4
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    The appeals court in Circuit 9 did rule today that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. In my opinion this is another example of the separation of church and state being misinterpreted. This will definently find its way to the Supreme Court.
    Laura

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  6. #5
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    Thumbs down

    Some people really have a misconception about what the separation of church and state really means.

    Remember ... In the old days the "Pilgrims", for lack of a better word, came to America seeking freedom of religion. Simplisically speaking, the government of England endorsed one religion and persecuted those who were not members of that religion. The church and the government were virtually one, with the church having major influence over laws and actions of the people.

    When the new government of the U.S. was established, freedom of religion and separation of church and state were written in to the Constitution to prevent this from happening again. Basically all it says is that the U.S. government cannot discriminate against folks based on their religion ... this was in the very first amendment to the Constitution, or the first amendment in the Bill of Rights.

    It reads:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    As you can see, it says only that Congress shall make no laws that establish an "official" religion, nor can they prevent the free exercise of religion.

    Because saying the words "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't really violate any of those rights (I.E. it doesn't tell you what God it is or that you must worship him) I don't think it's unconstitutional.

    All that being said, I suppose if I didn't believe in God it might be a problem, so why don't we just re-word it to remove that and make all school kids say it? I think it's important, especially nowadays.
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  7. #6
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    Angry

    This country is becoming sue crazy! You don't want to say it, don't say it. I wonder if the child really wants to do this or if it is the parent.

  8. #7
    TiggerRPh Guest

    Cool

    Stupid thing is the parent started this because he didn't want his daughter to feel excluded by not saying the pledge....with all this fuss, how do you think the social interaction with his daughter is now?

  9. #8
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    The pledge is to our nation. Not to a relgion. I think people are taking this way out of proportion. I think they need to remember the first few words...

    I pledge allegance to the flag, of the United States of America...

    That is what the pledge is for. Its not a relgion thing. So you don't believe in god, then don't say those two words. Simple as that.

    Rose
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  10. #9
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    Speaking as someone who is a Catholic turned strong agnostic (who was still told I had to attend church by school).

    As far as I am concerned, it seems as if there is a strong social pressure at various times to recite the pledge. The phrase "One nation, under God" is INARGUABLY a statement of a belief in God.
    Therefore there is a strong pressure to state a belief in God.

    In my opinion this is indeed unconstitutional/ wrong and despite the inevitable hoodoo that will result from this ruling it is actually the correct one; unfortunately people will think that this "ruins the pledge" or "disturbs the fabric of America" - but "coincidentally" these will all be Christians and Jews.

    People must accept that religion has no place in organisations and politics, and certainly not in "national doctrine".
    I've got a dirty thumb.

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  11. #10
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    The Constitution protects freedom "OF" religeon, not freedom "FROM" religion. No one is guaranteed the right to never be exposed to religion, just to not be forced to to practice one. The pledge includes no prayer or other religious rite, just an acknowlegment of religion.

    [ June 27, 2002, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: MoususMaximus ]
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  12. #11
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    Red face

    Ian, you took thoughts out of me head!

    This ruling deeply saddens me after everything this country has been through. While I understand religion is a 'heated' subject I think this unbelievable.

    This father was concerned with his daughter's contitutional rights not to have to say the Pledge because of his religious beliefs. So for this one child we should take away the constitutional rights of the other say 20 other children in the class who want to say the Pledge of Allegiance?

    The easiest solution would be for those who find the words 'under god' in the Pledge of Allegiance offesive DON'T SAY THAT PHRASE while you resite the Pledge!

    If this father finds this so offensive tell me what does he do for cash?? Doesn't US currency contain the phrase 'In God We Trust'?? Does he find the use of US currency offensive too??
    Cher (aka TheSorcererofFantasia)

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  13. #12
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    I am amazed that none of the talking heads on TV /radio have brought the point I am bringing up.

    Last week, the US Supreme Court ruled that executing the "borderline retarded" is unconstitutional because "public opinion" on the death penalty has changed.

    Well, "public opinion" is clearly on the side of Saying the Pledge as it stands.

    What will they say about "public opinion" now?

  14. #13
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    Originally posted by TheSorcererofFantasia:
    If this father finds this so offensive tell me what does he do for cash?? Doesn't US currency contain the phrase 'In God We Trust'?? Does he find the use of US currency offensive too??
    Actually, I saw an interview with the "gentleman" yesterday and he said his original thought was to sue to take "In God We Trust" off of all our currency. He settled on the Pledge of Allegiance suit because he figured that one was more winnable.

    And according to what I saw, the child was not forced to recite the pledge. The father objected to her having to listen to it!
    Karen

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  15. #14
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    Frankie #1440

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  16. #15
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    Originally posted by goofgal:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TheSorcererofFantasia:
    If this father finds this so offensive tell me what does he do for cash?? Doesn't US currency contain the phrase 'In God We Trust'?? Does he find the use of US currency offensive too??
    Actually, I saw an interview with the "gentleman" yesterday and he said his original thought was to sue to take "In God We Trust" off of all our currency. He settled on the Pledge of Allegiance suit because he figured that one was more winnable.

    And according to what I saw, the child was not forced to recite the pledge. The father objected to her having to listen to it!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hopefully he protects her from having to see US currency too! As a matter of fact, wonder if he protects her from hearing the Star Spangled Banner . . . maybe he should sue to have that stopped also since the orginal with all the verses contains the words "In God We Trust".
    Cher (aka TheSorcererofFantasia)

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  17. #16
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    I'm hearing so manythings here . . .

    Something to remember. The words are there in the pledge and on our money because the founding fathers DID believe in God. They were creating a nation "under God". If you don't like what they created, you don't have to live here. No one says you have to have the same beliefs, but you shouldn't be able to silence anyone else's beliefs either. And why is it always the Christian faith that gets picked on? If someone spoke out against a Star of David or any other religious symbol being displayed they would be shot down in a heartbeat.

    As to the Constitution, its not there to protect against hurt feelings. Its a set of guidelines for governing. The job of the Supreme Court is to interpret what the founding fathers meant. It seems to me by using the words "Under God" and "In God We Trust" they were pretty clear about that.

    p.s. Christians and Jews DO worship the same God why do people have trouble understanding that? And as I understand it, the Moslem faith has the same roots. So, what's the problem?
    Munch
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  18. #17
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    Better remove the word God and Creator from the declaration of Independence while we are at it. Heck, it's only the document that founded our nation. We need to be PC don't you know. Can't have the name of God invoked there can we? Oh, and we better not have "God Bless America". But then, if we just say, Bless America, who will Bless Us?

    It's fairly clear to me that this will be overturned and was generated by one of the most liberal courts in the country which is clearly out of touch with the mood of the public and nation in general.

    Want to understand what the pledge means...
    http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html

    I echo Ian's sentiments.
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  19. #18
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    Originally posted by JohnY:
    Better remove the word God and Creator from the declaration of Independence while we are at it
    Uh huh. And eliminate any symbols on religious buildings -- wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that it was OKAY to have different beliefs. And no more expressing your faith by wearing either the Cross or the Star of David on a chain -- you might offend someone. That goes for anyone who wears clothing or body decoration that is symbolic to their faith. This must stop. In the future, all peoples will be required to wear shapeless beige garments, have the same hair color and cut (a nice mousy brown page boy) and refrain from listening to music of their choice even in the privacy of their own home -- which will have to conform to basic saltbox format so as not to make others feel bad for having less money.

    and on and on and on and on and on
    Munch
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
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    Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)


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  20. #19
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    Not to sound repetetive (although it wouldn't be the first time I was accused of that ), but the pledge states that the nation was founded as one nation, under God ... and the fact of the matter is ... IT WAS!!!

    Some people forget that this country was begun by a bunch of people who were seeking the freedom to practice the religion of their choice ... not to escape from practicing religion at all.

    Yes ... in the United States you are free to refrain from believing in God. That is a guaranteed Constitutional right and no one would argue that point. HOWEVER, where most people go wrong is they have forgotten that the United States is a democracy. We are ruled by the will of the masses and there is absolutely no doubt that the VAST majority of U.S. citizens belive in a God of some sort. Why then, should the very small minority of people have any influence at all over the majority?

    What the Constitution grants you is the right NOT to say the Pledge if you so choose. It does NOT grant you the right to impose that will on others. In fact, by doing so you are turning around and doing exactly what you accuse people of doing to you!

    Somewhere along the line people got the idea that the Constitution guarantees you freedom from offense, which it does not. It merely says if something does offend you, you have the right to ignore it, speak out about it, protest it, or whatever else floats your boat, without being persecuted by the Government for it. That's it. No more.

    I have no idea when this notion came into being, but it is wrong and eventually a groundswell will come about in American and the silent majority will speak up and put an end to the vocal minority infringing on OUR civil rights.

    [ June 27, 2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: WDWacky ]
    Ian O
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  21. #20
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    What a sad day in America. Remind me never to move to any of the states where circuit 9 has any say.

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