Representation of Women in Disney

[Bobs]

I am a college student and I am carrying out a critical research
project for my Media course. The project is to find the relationship
between Disney women and film
I am conducting primary research and would like some opinions. Just for ideas? You could answer some of the questions below to get you started!

1) do you think women in disney films portray a positive message to
young women?

2) Ariel was critised for giving the message that young women should
leave homes, firends and family behind to be with the one they loved. Belle was critised for giving young girls the message that if you have an abusive partner you can change him if you kind and gentle (like belle) hence if you partner is abusive it is your fault
what are your opinions on this?

3) do you think the fact that disney had belle as a book worm a
positive or negative representation?

4) how do you think women in disney have changed from the first
heroine Snow White?

Any other opinions and comments on the subject would be great!
Thankyou
Student (UK!)

[Marisa luvs Mickey]

Originally posted by Marisa luvs Mickey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bobs:


1) do you think women in disney films portray a positive message to
young women?

I don't get it. How exactly does one portray a message?

2) Ariel was critised... Belle was critised...

I think it is rather silly to criticize fictional, cartoon people.

3) do you think the fact that disney had belle as a book worm a
positive or negative representation?

Representation of what? Bookworms?

4) how do you think women in disney have changed from the first
heroine Snow White?

They sing better songs. Especially when they sing Ashman & Menken songs.

</font>[/QUOTE]

[ChipnDaleGal]

I think it would be very nice if we all tried to answer these questions in the spirit in which they were asked. This is a legitimate request for help with a school project. Please keep that in mind when answering. [img]graemlins/mickey.gif[/img]

1)I think the more recent films portray women as strong poeple able to make decision for themselves. Mulan, Belle, Megara and Jsmine come to mind. They were not just helpless females waiting for a prince to come and save them. They are drawn impossibly beautiful and are all wonderfully proportioned. That is a little unrealistic for a little girl to think about wanting to look like. (Even big girls - oh how I wish I looked like Jasmine). That is one thing I really liked about Lilo and Stitch. Lilo and her sister were certainly not cookie cutter beautys, but you fell in love with them all the same.

2) I have never actually heard of the critisms you mentioned. I never felt that way about Ariel or Belle. Ariel followed her heart. I never saw the Beast as abusive. Rather I saw that as a lesson that you shouldn't judge someone by your first encounter. There may be more going on there if you look. I guess I have to give them some leeway. They are cartoons and it is a movie. If those were real life situations that would change things, but I think most people can seperate a cartoon situation from a real one, even little girls.

3) I can only see that as positive. Any role model of any kind that loves to read has to be good.

4)The newer heroines are definitely stronger and smarter. They are allowed to have conflict and resolve it themselves. There aren't a lot of Snow Whites in the world anymore, but I think there are a lot of strong and independant Mulans out there. I think it is a good relection of how women's roles in the world have progressed.

[ December 07, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: ChipnDaleGal ]

[goofyfanatic]

thank you Donna for reminding us that this is for a school project.

I would have to say that I don't see an issue with the way that women in Disney films are presented. This is coming from a man. I will tell you that my Mother in Law hates the "Someday my Prince will come" mentallity.

Yes the women of the Disney films have gotten stronger as the years have gone on as they should have.

Seth

[John D]

Originally posted by ChipnDaleGal:
They are drawn impossibly beautiful and are all wonderfully proportioned. That is a little unrealistic for a little girl to think about wanting to look like. (Even big girls - oh how I wish I looked like Jasmine).

... sigh ...

Jasmine.... [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ohbother81]

I think Disney heroines have definitely changed with the times. It's difficult to compare Snow White with Mulan because they are from different societal mentalities. As women have become more independent and self-sufficient in society, so have they in Disney animated features.

The fact is, no movie out there truly celebrates single women. They are always portrayed as incomplete until a man comes into the picture, and this is not just in Disney movies. Everyone talks about Bridget Jones as a strong single woman, but even in that movie, she finds Mr. Right and is fulfilled by his love. Until society is ready for a strong, single female lead character, you cannot expect Disney animated features to be the first to deliver one.

In general, I find Disney heroines to be a strong, positive image to young girls. They are generally kind and good people, lately have shown strong personalities (like Mulan, Megara, and Esmeralda). Though they all do find their "prince," they are typically not defined by this and have a story outside of their love. I'd be much happier to have a daughter whose role model was Belle rather than Britney Spears.

[Munch]

Interesting topic.

Romance has always been a common theme thru the ages so I don't criticize Disney for continuing its boy meets girl storylines.

I also don't feel that the early Disney movies, which always had the guy rescuing the girl, gave me unrealist expectations ... or any expectations whatsoever. Hey, its a CARTOON! Cartoons are pretend. Give kids some credit for knowing that. Just as I don't think most little girls truly believe they'll grow up to be princesses ... its just a fun and popular fantasy w/ the half pint female population. More important is the role model in the home. That's where behavior patterns are set.

That said I do cheer on the more contemporary portrayal of women as being smart and capable. I just think these characters are more fun. As Laura said, you can't really compare Snow White and Mulan because they are creations of a different time and reflect a different time.

They are always portrayed as incomplete until a man comes into the picture

But by the same token, as least in the more contemporary movies, the men are also portrayed as being better off when the right woman comes into the picture. In fact its usually the guy chasing after and trying to woo the girl. You could even comment on what kind of role model that is for a young boy!

More important is that the girl proves herself smart and capable, both Mulan and Jasmine certainly were, and still gets the guy. If there's a message here, its that the right person is going to accept you for what you are.

Ariel followed her heart. I never saw the Beast as abusive. Rather I saw that as a lesson that you shouldn't judge someone by your first encounter. There may be more going on there if you look.

This is my opinion as well. Neither Ariel nor Belle went along with the expectations of those around them. They didn't fall in line, but rather did their own thing.

And before we criticize the too near perfect looks given the heroines, they ain't exactly making the guys look ugly. But nobody is complaining about that!

[offwego]

Neat topic...

I think that the potrayal of Ariele needing to leave her family etc for love is not that different from what often happens. People may not give up as much for this as Ariele does but it's not that far to stretch to say that a relationship causes some sacrifices. Remember the Prince in this story had to love her without her voice (ie for who she was with flaws) too.

As to the issue of Belle I understand your driving at the issue of image vs reality and the perputation of the myth that abuse is caused by the victim but Beast is not violent so much as he is not consistent in his treatment of Belle (the off limits place etc). Much of the violence infered is due to his physical nature not his emotions so I think that this is unwarrented. (a strong case could be made that Belle's book worm traits allow her to not judge the book by it's cover).

Re Belle the book worm issue more power to it!! It's refreshing to see education valued over needle work or singing etc.

Snow white came from such a different era in society it's hard to compare it to the above models. Do you have flex to choose a different starting point (maybe Wendy in Peter Pan or Cinderalla). She was more the vehicle for the story than a strong charchater in her own right. It just goes to demonstrate that society demands a fuller illustration of the womens role in a story now (mulan, lilo, jasmine etc) than was acceptable in that time frame.

Good luck on your project.

(ps the physical attribute debate would likely be a whole other issue but some progress is being made remember Mulan was pretty but not obsessed with proper hair, clothes or makeup).

[grimley1968]

Originally posted by Marisa luvs Mickey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marisa luvs Mickey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bobs:


1) do you think women in disney films portray a positive message to
young women?

I don't get it. How exactly does one portray a message?

2) Ariel was critised... Belle was critised...

I think it is rather silly to criticize fictional, cartoon people.

3) do you think the fact that disney had belle as a book worm a
positive or negative representation?

Representation of what? Bookworms?

4) how do you think women in disney have changed from the first
heroine Snow White?

They sing better songs. Especially when they sing Ashman & Menken songs.

</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE][img]graemlins/shakehead.gif[/img] Can we be a little more sensitive to a sincere request for information without an attack?

1) Overall, I do think female Disney characters portray a positive message to young women. It's positive in the commonly accepted Judeo-Christian traditions. Some of the submessages may not be positive in the sense of pushing forward equal rights for women, but they are generally positive in portraying a Christian role model to a largely Christian audience.

2) I didn't see anything negative about Ariel's going for true love. There seemed to be nothing negative about her choice, except for losing her cloistered comfort in the sea. Belle is a different story. I would not say that Belle being with the Beast all that time was an allegory for "sticking with an abusive partner", but rather an allegory about true love softening the hardest of hearts.

3) I think Belle being a bookworm is a mostly positive aspect of her character. She is more interested in learning than in the ridiculously macho guy (I forget his name) who was after her.

4) I think female Disney characters have certainly become much more assertive role models in more recent movies. For example, Mulan became a warrior, and defeated some pretty scary looking male warriors. Mulan certainly would not have been as gullible as Snow White and eaten the poison apple.

In fact, there is a large school of thought that Walt made many of his early features as allegories of Biblical tales. Does Snow White eating an apple sound familiar to Genesis readers?

However, more recently, I think Disney characters have been more removed from religious underpinnings and have advanced far more modern causes, such as the environment and equal rights for all. So, Disney's female characters are still positive role models, I think, but not for the same overtly religious reasons as in the past.

[ December 10, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: grimley1968 ]

[Honey_BDynamo]

Some of the gender-roles of The Little Mermaid were completely skewered in "From Mouse to Mermaid: The Politics of Film, Gender, and Culture" I used part of the book as a reference in one of my college projects. It looked quite critically at Ariel for "giving up her family to get 'legs' in 'man's' world" as well as Ursula-as-drag-queen.

For me, the first time I saw Mulan, I was totally angry that she gave up a position in government to go off and get married -- how stupid and lame. Or, those were the thoughts of a 21-year-old coping with the prospects of not having a job after college and having to rely on the income of her fiancee. So, with my personal baggage in check, I can now see Mulan as strong and capable for what she did outside of her perscribed gender-role, but also as a strong woman who chose to return to the things she was "expected" do to. Nothing's wrong with being a wife and/or mother, so long as she was given the opportunity to make that decision. It feels to me like she chose it freely.

Belle? I didn't meet Belle till I was nearly 20. I wish I had seen B&tB in theaters, I think she would have totally been my hero in junior high. She's smart, prefers to study and increase her own knowledge rather than fawn over the 'handsome' creep, Gaston, she is caring about her father. She's almost too good -- but I'd rather have girls see her as a role model than a helpless woman.

I never saw Beast as "abusive" but I can see how his behavior might lean that way. It was said before, and I agree, that his abusiveness may be a product of his being -- he's a beast, afterall. But, it's clear that he has some anger issues. So, if Beast were my DH, I'd be thinking of getting some anger management, but I didn't see him as being emotionally abusive. People can't change other people, they can be there and be supportive and constructive and provide and environment for change. I think if Beast actually started wailing on Belle or verbally demeaned her, it would send a message of "you can change your abusive boyfriend by being nice." The story probably nears the "line" but it doesn't cross it.

I think heroines have changed. Most of it, I think, reflects the times. I'm not sure a power-mom of the 80s or 90s would stand for movies portraying women as fully helpless ... Or, maybe they would. It's a fairy tale, right? I know they're just films and stories, but kids do *learn* behavior. So, the more recent Disney gals are much stronger. For better or worse, they have opinions and they express them. Yeah, having a man around is sort of still a goal, but it's not the ONLY goal. Jasmine wanted to change the law that she must be married, Belle wanted to read and help her inventor father, Mulan wanted to keep her father from going to war, Ariel wanted to explore outside of her immediate world, landing a man was secondary.

Hope I answered the questions well enough ... But yeah, I suggest you get a hold of that book. As well, I'm reading "The Gospel According to Disney: Faith, Trust and Pixie Dust" I'm not done with it, but it does discuss Snow White and her appearance at the 7 Dwarfs house. It might be of use.

Best of luck, happy researching!!

[grimley1968]

This is also discussed, briefly, in The DaVinci Code, where there is a discussion of supposed references to Mary Magdaleine in many popular pieces of art and other culture. Disney movies are supposedly heavy with these references, especially Snow White, Cinderella, etc. Pretty interesting take on it, should you happen to read DaVinci Code soon.

[ChesireLisa]

As the mother of a young daughter, this is a topic that is close to my heart. When watching any portrayal of women with my daughter, we keep an open dialogue of what "they"( being the makers of whatever film) have right and what they don't. Early Disney heroines leave a lot to be desired in my mind. Yes, they are cartoon characters, but for a 4 year old they are much more than that and every representation my DD sees of women is teaching her something, whether it be good or bad. In my book...Ariel is the worst offender, I give Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora a break simply because in the time they were made, women were looked upon differently in our society, Ariel does not have that luxury.
She gives away her voice to win Eric....to me that is a message I don't want my daughter "learning" from. Now my DD is still watches these movies...but we question the stereotypes portrayed, and although she is only 4 she has noticed other gender stereotypes on TV and in print ads ( for example...how many commercials show little girls playing with trucks or cars??). Belle and Mulan represent the best of what Disney could be teaching little girls. Belle is smart, and she knows that being smart is so much more important than being pretty. She also knows that although Gaston is handsome, he's dumb as a rock and ugly on the inside. Mulan is brave,strong, and determined to be taken seriously. Yes, she falls for the Shang, but not "love at first sight", I truly believe that she falls for him after seeing his character, and what a great leader he is.

Sorry so long...but as I said, as a mom I do my best everyday to raise to my daughter to believe that she is no better nor worse for being female, that she is a complete person, not 1/2 waiting for the other 1/2 to make her whole, that being smart and strong and brave are all good things and that anyone, man or woman who is intimidated by these qualities in a female, really needs to get with the times. I have an amazingly well balanced little person on my hands who puts on her lipgloss before heading out in the backyard to play in the dirt! She has asked for cars and trucks for Christmas and also a Barbie( ugg...to avoid this turning into a power struggle I have decided to give in to the evil doll...but it WILL at least be a doctor Barbie).

[Googlie Bear]

I dont want to get into my big long opinion, but I think you should include The Princess Diaries in your discussion of modern Disney princesses. I asked my 8 year old sister which disney princess is her role model, and to my surprise, she answered Mia.

Another interesting topic of note: As Disney heroines have gotten stronger over the years, the villians were cast as male:

THe Evil Queen
The Stepmother,
The Queen of Hearts
Milleficent
Cruella
VS
Ursula (kind of drag queen-esque)
Gaston
Jafar
Gov Ratcliffe
Shan Yu

Etc....
I'm not sure what to read into that, but its interesting.

[Cinderelley]

1) I think the heroines in Disney films portray a mostly positive message. They each have different personality traits that they use to find their own right way just like each woman in real life has her own unique personality. Some women are fighters like Mulan and some are gracious and kind like Snow Whhite. Disney portrays each personality in a good light, so every little girl can see herself as a heroine.

I do think that Disney needs to portray the physical aspect a little more realistically to decrease the pressure to conform to the "ideal" beauty of the time.

2) I don't think Ariel was any different than most 16 year old girls. Whether we like it or not, they meet their first "love" and think the guy walks on water and can do no wrong. Mom and Dad don't understand and don't know anything. It's just a storyline written from a teens' fantasy point of view. Ariel realizes the problems that were created by what she did wrong and that she has to help fix them ie making her father vulnerable to Ursula. In the end, she doesn't give them up completely. They just blend - they're all at the wedding. Besides, don't we give up family and friends when we get married - not completely, but its definitely not at the pre-marriage level.


I admit that it's been a while since I saw Beauty and the Beast, but the only time I remember him being violent was with the wolves who were going to attack Belle when she was trying to run away. I don't even remember him being verbally degrading to her. His ill-mannered behavior was always cast in a bad light, and he was being punished for it. I can see the point that is being made, but I don't read that into the movie. Honestly, I always viewed it as an exaggerated portrayal of what men must go through in their lifetime. Biologically, they are made to be physically aggressive, but they have to learn how to restrain it to deal with the "fairer" sex. Winner-takes-all-women fighting might work in the animal world, but it won't get too many dates in my town.

3) I think that Belle being a bookworm is a positive in that she is portraying another personality type - refer to #1

4) I think that Disney women have changed in the fact that things happened "to" Snow White - she was chased away, the animals led her to the dwarves' cottage, the prince rescued her. Newer characters "do" things - Mulan went to war, Pocahontas saved John, the cows in Home on the Range set out to save their farm, etc.

On a last note, I always thought that the men needed to be portrayed a little more realistically. This will probably sound a little bizarre. I grew up in an abusive home, and somewhere I learned that things weren't supposed to be the way they were. I remember watching the old Princess movies and thinking that real men were supposed to be like that. Imagine my rude awakening when I found out they weren't. [img]graemlins/doubleeek.gif[/img]

My macho, ex-military, football playing DH was even more mortified when I expected him to be able to waltz with me at our wedding like in Cinderella. [img]graemlins/laughing.gif[/img]

Hope you have a great time with your research project.

[Bobs]

[img]graemlins/mickeysanta.gif[/img]
Thankyou all so much for your replies! I have posted countless messages in various forums and had no one reply to them! Thankyou for remembering it is a school project! I am a huge fan of Disney and am myself against the critism and analysing of the films! It is merely a form of entertainment and a wonderful form at that!
Merry Christmas to everyone and Thanks again!

[goofyfanatic]

No problem Bob.

We hope that you continue to post on the site.

Seth

[Bobs]

Further Questions:
From my study i discovered that when Walt Disney was exapnding his studios in the 30's that he advertised for male art-school graduates to train as animators for the new feature film Snow White. Do you think it is the lack of female influence in the creation of the character that places her into a stereotypical "woman" or the time that the film was created? Perhaps a bit of both?
Sorry to pick your brains but you've all been so helpful with you opinions and responses! You will all get a mention in my essay (the nice people anyway )Thanks again, Robyn [img]graemlins/mickey.gif[/img] (18 and 2 days!!!)

[Bobs]

P.s. does anyone know anyone who I can interview via email etc. I need a primary source that is connected with the subject i.e. Someone who works for Disney (ideally an animator - haha in my dreams [img]graemlins/sleepin.gif[/img] ) any ideas?
Thanks
Robyn
xxx

[AvonleaCF]

Check out The Gospel According to Disney: Faith, Trust, and Pixie Dust by Mark I. Pinsky at your local bookstore. There is a lot of great information about this topic.

[Googlie Bear]

THere's also some info that may be valuable in the book Inside the Mouse: Work and Play at Walt Disney World.