Interesting Rumors for WDW

[Ian]

So...with that logic, I who plan my vacations ahead, will not be able to get an ADR, because you might want go at the spur of the moment. Not only is that not fair to people who plan ahead, it's bad business, you don't take a maybe when you have a yes.

I love ya BB&H, so don't take this personally, but ...........

You're a little off base here, I think. Admittedly, it might be my skewed perspective, but I don't think so.

First off, they're not passing up a maybe for a yes. They're passing up a maybe for another maybe. Just because someone makes an ADR is no guarantee they're going to use it. It's just a guarantee that Disney has to hold a table for them for 180 days. We both know that many people make ADR's they have no intention of keeping.

And what that does is, it discourages people who call last minute and are told there's no availability from walking up. If people cancel last minute (or more likely not at all), those will be tables that are unused.

For example, say I wander up to Chefs De France at 5:55PM and ask for table. They can't give me one because the McGuillicutty party has a reservation for four at 6PM. I go away disappointed and hungry and end up spending 10 bucks on a cheeseburger instead of 50 bucks on a big steak.

Meantime, the McGuillicutty party is sitting down eating at Liberty Tree Tavern because they ended up in MK today and that was where they made their MK reservation. They also have a reservation at Brown Derby and at Boma that they blew off in favor of LTT.

So guess what? Those ADR's meant exactly bubkes to Disney.

You sort of implied that we don't like current policy because it doesn't work in our favor, but I sort of get the idea that if they did it the way we suggest you'd take issue because it doesn't work in your favor (or vice versa, you're fine with the way it is now because it does work in your favor).

I guess what I'm saying is, we're all biased to one degree or another. Even so ... can't we all just get along!!?

[Cinderelley]

Well, it seems like the best thing to do would be to refuse duplicate ADRs. Why can't Disney set up a system that alerts CMs to people who are making multiple reservations? They already ask for your phone number.

No matter how you set up the dining system, you will have people who take advantage of the loopholes and people who are turned away at meal time - whether or not there's a dining plan, ADRS are made 180 days out, 90 days out or no reservations at all.

[pshokie]

That has been discussed a lot in other threads. The only solution anyone could come up with was some sort of monetary penalty for not canecelling an ADR "in a sufficient time". What does that mean???? Well that depends on the poster. 24 hours prior, 12 hours prior, before ADR time, etc., you get the picture. And how much???? As for the phone numbers, cell phone, home phone, work phone, etc. etc. To easy to work the system.

What I think is the real issue here is the expectation people have of what Table Service Dining options should be available to them. Now here me out...Disney is not like any other place, be it a big city or small town. The fact is, on a daily basis Disney has a lot of people that are looking for some sort of dinner every night. Why? because they cannot cook for themselves. Well, they could, if the made extra for the Fire Marshall.

I could not place what made Disney different (that is, differ from Carrabbas, Friday's, etc.)
until the drive home and then it hit me. Figure 10,000 rooms at 4 people per room (I rounded the rooms down to account for DVCers), that's 40,000 people. And I know that number is low.

When else do this many people in a concentrated setting "dine out" all at once on a single day?

Mother's Day.

Now, if I were to look at this as if it were Mother's day, I know there is no way I can get into any decent restaurant as a walk up. Just ain't gonna happen. Too many other people are trapped as well, have to take Mom out to treat her special. If you are not booking weeks in advance, you are shut out.

This sound a lot like Disney.

So its not a Friday night a Carrabbas, but the second Sunday in May. It just happens to be that way 365 days a year at Disney.

For the record, I think the 180 day window is ridiculous. I am good with 45 days. That is the the final payment is due for packages anyway.

And one last thing, while I get LockedOut & Ian's frustration, I cannot help but wonder what would happen if walk-ups/same day ADRs are "re-instituted" at the current DDP/ADR levels. My opinion, people would figure out how to work the system (just like they do now) and it would make things much much worse. I could go into my thoughts on this but this is long enough already. But I have yet to see one person (either 180 or Same Day advocate) articulate exactly how their change to the system would work in the real world. Not theoretically, but actualy put it into play in your minds eye and see what happens.

Maybe I'll post my thoughts on that later...

Oh, and following Ian's suggestion....
I think that would be called getting along.

[lockedoutlogic]

First of all...you're completely off base. I didn't set the time period for making reservations, and I'm not saying it couldn't be shortened. I was fine with 90 days.

I believe by accusing me saying a specific version should be foisted on everyone, you are saying just that, you want it your way, the way that works for you. If Disney wants to shorten the time for ADRS to 30 days, I could care less, I just make the system work for me and work according to the rules. I don't believe reservations should be partially held back.

As for the Carrabbas reference, they take no reservations, that would be different. What you are proposing would be chaos with people wandering looking for a place to eat, and am quite certain more people would be put out by it than the current policy, regardless of the amount of days ahead of time you call.

My cheese is cheddar, thank you....

what happened to the middle 3 paragraphs of my post?

If you gut the post....especially the logic for the argument....you pretty much always come out looking like aces.....

Try Swiss...seriously....

[big blue and hairy]

what happened to the middle 3 paragraphs of my post?

If you gut the post....especially the logic for the argument....you pretty much always come out looking like aces.....

Try Swiss...seriously....

Noooooo.....I didn't gut your post, I just made it short so folks knew which post I was refering to. Your post is still here isn't it?

Cheddar baby, cheddar....

[big blue and hairy]

I love ya BB&H, so don't take this personally, but ...........

You're a little off base here, I think. Admittedly, it might be my skewed perspective, but I don't think so.

First off, they're not passing up a maybe for a yes. They're passing up a maybe for another maybe. Just because someone makes an ADR is no guarantee they're going to use it. It's just a guarantee that Disney has to hold a table for them for 180 days. We both know that many people make ADR's they have no intention of keeping.

And what that does is, it discourages people who call last minute and are told there's no availability from walking up. If people cancel last minute (or more likely not at all), those will be tables that are unused.

For example, say I wander up to Chefs De France at 5:55PM and ask for table. They can't give me one because the McGuillicutty party has a reservation for four at 6PM. I go away disappointed and hungry and end up spending 10 bucks on a cheeseburger instead of 50 bucks on a big steak.

Meantime, the McGuillicutty party is sitting down eating at Liberty Tree Tavern because they ended up in MK today and that was where they made their MK reservation. They also have a reservation at Brown Derby and at Boma that they blew off in favor of LTT.

So guess what? Those ADR's meant exactly bubkes to Disney.

You sort of implied that we don't like current policy because it doesn't work in our favor, but I sort of get the idea that if they did it the way we suggest you'd take issue because it doesn't work in your favor (or vice versa, you're fine with the way it is now because it does work in your favor).

I guess what I'm saying is, we're all biased to one degree or another. Even so ... can't we all just get along!!?

I completely agree that some people abuse the system, just as they would abuse any system. Seriously Ian, think about it a minute, do you really think the majority of ADRs are being abused? Unless you actually believe that, you have to agree that WDW is getting more table filled this way.

I understand you frustration, but hey, if you find out when the next ADR runs out, you could wait a few minutes and maybe get that table. I believe the hypothetical LTT people would have had to do that.

The Mother's Day analogy was a good one. Every day at WDW is a special occasion for everybody, so most people want to make reservations for their meal.

Like I said earlier, I would have no problem if the window was shorter, but trying to hold some back for a month, some for two months, some for walk-ups, you're just asking for a cluster... WDW isn't going to do it, it would be harder to keep track.

Glad ya love me, though

What happened to WDWacky?

[lockedoutlogic]

I completely agree that some people abuse the system, just as they would abuse any system. Seriously Ian, think about it a minute, do you really think the majority of ADRs are being abused? Unless you actually believe that, you have to agree that WDW is getting more table filled this way.

I understand you frustration, but hey, if you find out when the next ADR runs out, you could wait a few minutes and maybe get that table. I believe the hypothetical LTT people would have had to do that.

The Mother's Day analogy was a good one. Every day at WDW is a special occasion for everybody, so most people want to make reservations for their meal.

Like I said earlier, I would have no problem if the window was shorter, but trying to hold some back for a month, some for two months, some for walk-ups, you're just asking for a cluster... WDW isn't going to do it, it would be harder to keep track.

Glad ya love me, though

What happened to WDWacky?

Here's the bottomline....to cut to it as succinctly as I can.....

The dining plan has completely altered the dining experience. Better for some....not so much for others....

The fact is that Disney did have a system in place that allowed for flexibility in dealing with it's varying types of clientele.....

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.

This has to be the angle....I know better than almost anyone not paid a 6 figure salary by disney....and that is the advantage to locked in food prices. They are not really making much off the dining plan revenues with the rates that way they are...especially compared to the menu prices and fast food costs.

So here's why I hate the dining plan and reservation system.....it has herded people like sheep to where disney has wanted them to go...and that is in locked out and standing room only scenarios...as if they didn't have enough of those in the first place.


One final note: the problem with duplicate bookings and reservations is that the CMs at the restaurants have been...basically...throwing the walk ups out of the door at the beginning of the meal periods. They automatically assume that there will be no no shows...even though they have them every day. So it is possible that I could get a table at 7:45 at LTT when someone who was willing to wait an hour at 5:30 would have long sinced ended up at Cosmic Rays.....

That is not right....and I have watched it happen on about 10 trips since 2003....

that is disgusting.....everyone pays dearly to go....some should not suffer more because they don't "know" to exploit the system.
IT is up to Disney to attempt to close the loopholes.

I also...personally have told people, politely, that they should not double book reservations when I have heard them say it at WDW.
In life, no one should take something they don't intend to use...I make no bones about how inconsiderate this practice is....

[big blue and hairy]

Here's the bottomline....to cut to it as succinctly as I can.....

The dining plan has completely altered the dining experience. Better for some....not so much for others....

The fact is that Disney did have a system in place that allowed for flexibility in dealing with it's varying types of clientele.....

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.

This has to be the angle....I know better than almost anyone not paid a 6 figure salary by disney....and that is the advantage to locked in food prices. They are not really making much off the dining plan revenues with the rates that way they are...especially compared to the menu prices and fast food costs.

So here's why I hate the dining plan and reservation system.....it has herded people like sheep to where disney has wanted them to go...and that is in locked out and standing room only scenarios...as if they didn't have enough of those in the first place.


One final note: the problem with duplicate bookings and reservations is that the CMs at the restaurants have been...basically...throwing the walk ups out of the door at the beginning of the meal periods. They automatically assume that there will be no no shows...even though they have them every day. So it is possible that I could get a table at 7:45 at LTT when someone who was willing to wait an hour at 5:30 would have long sinced ended up at Cosmic Rays.....

That is not right....and I have watched it happen on about 10 trips since 2003....

that is disgusting.....everyone pays dearly to go....some should not suffer more because they don't "know" to exploit the system.
IT is up to Disney to attempt to close the loopholes.

I also...personally have told people, politely, that they should not double book reservations when I have heard them say it at WDW.
In life, no one should take something they don't intend to use...I make no bones about how inconsiderate this practice is....

I agree with everything you just said. I don't agree about making ADR's, but that's not the dining plan. There really ought to be some way to keep folks from double booking or at least make it harder. Some people will always cheat the system, but as much as you can minmize it, the better.

Pre-paid dining does kind of have the same effect as package delivery, it just makes spending money sooooo much easier, just like the Mouse likes it....

[pshokie]

But now it's gone....and the dining plan is the culprit.
There is some motivation there...I don't believe Disney is making more of food revenue under the dining plan than it did before it. The numbers just don't lead to that. Food is a relatively low profit revenue source...supplies and overhead is high.

So there is a reason....I have put alot of thought into it...and I can only see one true potential advantage to having people show up with everything prepaid under the package/dining plans....

...that is because there is one thing that still is not prepaid: merchandise.

Now you have families who have had basically an all inclusive prepaid for months show up armed with...what they perceived as...more free cash in their pockets....
And where does that fee cash then end up? you guessed it...world of disney.

Pre-paid dining does kind of have the same effect as package delivery, it just makes spending money sooooo much easier, just like the Mouse likes it....

I think you guys are really getting to the root of the problem. Granted, I do not know how to fix it, but....

To tack onto this, I think the DDP does give the feeling of "dinner is free". I know I have felt that way. You're full after the meal, but you still have desert to go. Hey, why not, after all its free. Now granted I know is not free but rather pre-paid. But in the moment, I think you guys understand the feeling I am trying to convey.

As for the ADRs, I do not think it takes a flashlight and a road map to figure out that the DDP has increased the need for ADRs. But I also think that ADRs also play into this notion of dining being pre-paid/free. And the way it plays in involves "standing around time". I look at ADRs almost as a version of Fastpass. An ADR allows you to wonder the parks longer, thus providing the potential to spend more money. Just as Fastpass keeps you out of line and allows you the potential to spend more money.

Now granted, it is not a certainty that people will use this potential to spend money rather that ride rides, but it still does create the the freedom to do so.

I think this is one master-created plan to get people to:
1) Think they have extra "free" money
2) Create the opportunity for them to go out and spend it.

Evil but brilliant when you think about it.

[Ian]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

[big blue and hairy]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

Plus, most people probably either stay longer or choose to upgrade the room with the free dining, I know I would. The Mouse is no dummy....

[lockedoutlogic]

I'll remember yinz (sorry...my native pittsburghese is leaking out) when someone throws out the

"free dining (or DDP) is disney's way of making the magic affordable for everyone"
line of thought

and of course...I am honor bound to wield the reality stick.

I believe that falling for every sales pitch that they disguise as "guest service" is a sure fire way to guarantee that room rates, tickets, and all other experiences will steadily increase for years to come..

Hey...I love Disney as much as anyone....but not recognizing that you are being peddled a product and feeding the monster by blindly following it to its lair...in the end...lightens all our wallets.
And that is the only thing that shuts out those that could use a break to experience WDW.

you know...when I worked at WDW....we often talked about who we went out of our way for:

The six time a year person from the Northeast?
Or the first timer from the plains?

Management's take would always be the former...but to a person...the rank and file's answer would be the latter.

To see an adult (even moreso than a child's) face light up with awe and sheer pleasure when they see something completely unique and foreign to them is one of the absolute greatest things to witness in the world. There is...literally nothing like it. Even when it's a complete stranger that you will never see again.



Ahhh...nevermind....Anyway, The Dining Plan is going to start going up in cost anyway....they just won't be able to resist beating that horse...

[glenpreece]

Actually I think you are all right on the money ... the DDP is brilliant when you think about it in that context.

It costs what? $35 a day or so as an add-on to a package? I'd be willing to bet that comes close to covering their actual costs for what the average guest eats. They probably lose a little bit, but not too much.

But on the upside, to get the DDP you have to purchase a "package" (which is a higher margin item for Disney) and it forces you to pre-pay for your meals upfront. How many people do you think adjust the amount of spending money they bring on a trip to account for that? I know I don't!

So yeah ... people show up with pockets loaded with spending money and nothing to spend it on. You better bet they're going home loaded down with souvenirs, not to mention overpriced photos, receipts for boat rentals, massages, etc. Basically, Disney shifted where guests spend their free cash from lower margin items to higher margin items and did it invisibly, while making it look like we're all getting a deal.

And it's actually even better when they give it for free! So what, they lose out on a few extra bucks a day, but guess what? You pay rack rate for that room you're staying in, you have to buy expensive park passes, etc.

BRILLIANT!

This is exactly how I see it. Feed 'em for cheap and then they can blow their money on toys, shirts etc, You've hit the nail on the head. If there was no fdp this year I wouldn't be going back so soon.

[Cinderelley]

Okay, I hate to sound really naive here, but how do you know that the increase in ADRS is from the DDP? (aside from the obvious time of the free DDP) I admit that I'm relatively new to WDW, our first trip was in 2005, but tourism took a big hit in 2001 and has slowly recovered. Could it just be that people are now starting to "vacation" again, so more people are going to WDW, even without the DDP? Could the increase in ADRs just be because there are more people going now?

This will be my first trip using DDP, just because it is free when we are going, but I've made ADRs during all of my trips for the table service restaurants that we did want. We would never buy the DDP because it is cheaper to do it the way my DH likes it - breakfast that we brought from home in the room. Counter service for lunch & counter service for dinner. There are some table service restaurants that we book for the experience, but generally Less time eating = more time for rides.

[Ian]

Okay, I hate to sound really naive here, but how do you know that the increase in ADRS is from the DDP? (aside from the obvious time of the free DDP) I admit that I'm relatively new to WDW, our first trip was in 2005, but tourism took a big hit in 2001 and has slowly recovered. Could it just be that people are now starting to "vacation" again, so more people are going to WDW, even without the DDP? Could the increase in ADRs just be because there are more people going now?

This will be my first trip using DDP, just because it is free when we are going, but I've made ADRs during all of my trips for the table service restaurants that we did want. We would never buy the DDP because it is cheaper to do it the way my DH likes it - breakfast that we brought from home in the room. Counter service for lunch & counter service for dinner. There are some table service restaurants that we book for the experience, but generally Less time eating = more time for rides.

No, because I've been going to Disney annually for over a decade (i.e. pre-9/11) and it was not like this before then either.

It's defintely the DDP ... I can tell because the two coincided exactly. The minute they started pushing the DDP was when ADR's became like gold.

[BrerSchultzy]

DDP has definitely boosted the amount of ADRs made...if a family stays for 8 nights, they're now eating a sit down meal every single night, whereas before, that may have been three or four times (at most). In fact, that is exactly why we DON'T do the DDP...we just can't eat that much food.

But to the point of ADRs...I don't think Disney will ever bother to "fix" the problem (except possibly moving the 180 day window to 90 days). Why should they? Their restaurants are booked...and they could EASILY raise the price of DDP, and they'd still be booked. For example, if you are on the DDP with a party of more than six....good luck getting a table within 30 minutes of your ADR. They just don't have the space to sit everyone together.

I don't think the abuse of the ADRs is as prevalent as everyone makes them out to be. And even if it was, it would probably be so regular a practice as to be calculated into the matrix so that the canceled ADRs are accounted for in how many ADRs they can give out for each restaurant.

Just my .02

[Cinderelley]

No, because I've been going to Disney annually for over a decade (i.e. pre-9/11) and it was not like this before then either.

It's defintely the DDP ... I can tell because the two coincided exactly. The minute they started pushing the DDP was when ADR's became like gold.

I wish I'd been going that long. I did notice that when I've been calling for our upcoming trip, they are pushing the ADRs. I can't get off the phone without them saying something like "Can I help you with anything else, like dinner reservations?"

[lockedoutlogic]

I wish I'd been going that long. I did notice that when I've been calling for our upcoming trip, they are pushing the ADRs. I can't get off the phone without them saying something like "Can I help you with anything else, like dinner reservations?"

they're "pushing" the ADRs because if they don't...the people that show up and get shut out will raise hell....

Not good for the atmosphere...an idea of what restaurants are more popular also help them tweak menus, hours....and most importantly...portions and prices.