Get Out the Brooms!!!!!!!

[Ian]

I told you it was worse for us if we played bad teams.

We sweep four in a row from the division champs and then lose two of three to the dog Florida Marlins.

That's so Phillies.

[Scar]

Does anyone know if the Phillies won last night?

[Hammer]

Scar, don't be mean ! I can't believe another pitcher is hurt! This is crazy! People may not like Charlie Manuel, but he has managed to keep this team in the playoff race (and yes, they are still in it even after last night) with the pitching equivalent of duct tape and string!

[Ian]

I refuse to make excuses for this team. They're perennial losers.

Had they done their homework in the off-season and if they weren't so darn CHEAP we wouldn't be saddled with stiffs like Leiber, Eaton, and Garcia in the first place.

I keep trying to root for this team and they keep reminding me why I'm never successful at it. I have zero interest in supporting a team that's far more concerned about turning a profit than they are about winning.

I wonder what they're going to do next season when their fancy new stadium is a ghost town??

[Hammer]

I refuse to make excuses for this team. They're perennial losers.

Had they done their homework in the off-season and if they weren't so darn CHEAP we wouldn't be saddled with stiffs like Leiber, Eaton, and Garcia in the first place.

I keep trying to root for this team and they keep reminding me why I'm never successful at it. I have zero interest in supporting a team that's far more concerned about turning a profit than they are about winning.

I wonder what they're going to do next season when their fancy new stadium is a ghost town??

Okay, Ian, I have to correct you on a few things here. I agree about the Garcia trade being a mistake (though they really didn't give up much as Floyd does not have the mental makeup for Philly) but 10 million isn't cheap. The price for Eaton was the average price for a pitcher. Would you rather they had paid $136 million dollars for Zito and have him be atrocious here? Leiber did well for us the first year and half of the 3 year contract. It's the risk that is taken with multiple year contracts in baseball. The Phillies have the 5th highest payroll in baseball, so they spend the money, just don't always make the prudent choices.

Also, the ballpark will not be a "ghost town", as you put it. Even in the mid to late 90's, the Phillies still out drew teams like the Pirates, Marlins and others. They'll be a dropoff, but not as big as you think.

Whatever happens, I'll still be back next year because win or lose, I stand by my teams.

[Ian]

The Phillies have the 5th highest payroll in baseball, so they spend the money, just don't always make the prudent choices.

That's totally false. I don't know where that rumor comes from, but it's totally untrue.

They have the 14th highest payroll in MLB. Here's the breakdown:

1 Yankees $195,229,045
2 Red Sox $143,526,214
3 Mets $117,915,819
4 White Sox $109,680,167
5 Angels $109,251,333
6 Dodgers $108,704,524
7 Mariners $106,516,833
8 Cubs $99,937,000
9 Tigers $95,180,369
10 Orioles $95,107,807
11 Giants $90,469,056
12 Cardinals $90,286,823
13 Braves $89,492,685
14 Phillies $89,368,214
15 Astros $87,759,500
16 A's $79,938,369
17 Blue Jays $79,925,600
18 Brewers $71,986,500
19 Twins $71,439,500
20 Reds $69,154,980
21 Rangers $68,818,675
22 Royals $67,366,500
23 Indians $61,673,267
24 Padres $58,235,567
25 Rockies $54,424,000
26 D'backs $52,067,546
27 Pirates $38,604,500
28 Nationals $37,347,500
29 Marlins $30,507,000
30 Devil Rays $24,124,200

Notice the teams that are ahead of them? See any familiar names? Mets ... Cubs ... Braves ... Dodgers ... Yankees ... Red Sox ... Tigers ... Angels ...

All teams that are ahead of or right there with the Phillies in the standings.

Now admittedly, there are teams like the Diamondbacks and the Padres that are below them in the standings and still have better records. But that's more than likely due to another weakness of the Phillies. They probably have a lot of cheap, homegrown talent that's come up through their farm systems.

Whatever happens, I'll still be back next year because win or lose, I stand by my teams.

I refuse to stand behind a team that I know won't do everything it takes to win.

[PirateLover]

People may not like Charlie Manuel, but he has managed to keep this team in the playoff race (and yes, they are still in it even after last night) with the pitching equivalent of duct tape and string!

Honestly Christine, I'm not a fan of this reasoning. I think that the Phillies have won games in spite of Manuel, not because of him. I think that many of the players on this team are self-motivated, like Utley, Rollins, Victorino... I think these guys would succeed under any manager. You can make an arguement maybe for Pat Burrell, but I think his is also a case of having bad seeds out of the clubhouse and winners with positive attitudes inside the clubhouse. Although the manager's attitude does play into that clubhouse atmosphere, his in game decisions have at times been questionable, and sometimes downright puzzling. I do not want to see him back here again.

I refuse to make excuses for this team. They're perennial losers...
I keep trying to root for this team and they keep reminding me why I'm never successful at it. I have zero interest in supporting a team that's far more concerned about turning a profit than they are about winning.

The thing is, as much as I may not like management, I am still a die hard fan. I LOVE this Phillies team aside from the pitching staff. We have players that are having fun but are still serious about winning. If only the management/owners got serious about winning instead of just making enough moves to scrape by. That being said, you can't discount the fact that the Phillies have had amazingly bad luck this year when it comes to pitching. 13 starting pitchers in one season? Wow.

I will continue to root for the Phils but I'm not going to put my heart fully into it because I'm tired of it getting broken. So I watch games, but I don't curse or get those nervous palpitations like I used to. But I will always be a fan and will continue to go to games.

[Hammer]

I have a number of $95 million, which definitely makes a difference in where the team would rank for payroll. Where did you get your figures (not that I'm doubting you) and are they from the start of the season or how it is presently constituted? I think my figure is from the start of the season.

I just don't agree with that mentality (I call it the WIP syndrome) of fan support. Any team I follow, I stick with them through thick and thin. To use a different example, I was a fan of the Bucs when they were 0-26 and I'm a fan still today. You don't think there were bonehead decisions made by the Bucs over the years which made me upset? I'm still mad that they let John Lynch go! Let's say it's the Eagles. Did you abandon them when Brahman owned the team or the Kotite years?

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. You aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. We are entitled to our different opinions on this subject.

[Hammer]

Honestly Christine, I'm not a fan of this reasoning. I think that the Phillies have won games in spite of Manuel, not because of him. I think that many of the players on this team are self-motivated, like Utley, Rollins, Victorino... I think these guys would succeed under any manager. You can make an arguement maybe for Pat Burrell, but I think his is also a case of having bad seeds out of the clubhouse and winners with positive attitudes inside the clubhouse. Although the manager's attitude does play into that clubhouse atmosphere, his in game decisions have at times been questionable, and sometimes downright puzzling. I do not want to see him back here again.

Yes, he does make bonehead in-game decisions, but honestly so do a lot of other managers. I like to read the articles on him from non- Philadelphia reporters, because I think they tend to be less biased. Almost all of those articles say the players will walk over hot coals for that man. That's why a player like Victorino keeps trying to play even though he is not healed. Charlie has them thinking team first. I don't necessarily think he should come back, but if he pulls out a miracle and we get to the playoffs, he will probably be back.

[Ian]

Christine, I want to be clear ... I have nothing but positive feelings for Charlie Manuel. Is he the best in-game manager ever? No. Do I feel that he more than makes up for that in the way he's able to get the most out of his players? Absolutely.

The issue I have is with ownership. I can't respect any pro sports franchise that basically openly admits they won't do everything within their power to win. And that means if they decline to spend an extra $5 million a season to get the best available pitcher, I have an issue with that.

And as far as my figures ... I got them here:

http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158/

[PirateLover]

. Do I feel that he more than makes up for that in the way he's able to get the most out of his players? Absolutely.

[Scar]

I refuse to stand behind a team that I know won't do everything it takes to win.

According to your list, there are 16 teams doing less than the Phillies are. Should their fans refuse to support them? Are you a huge baseball fan? You are apparently a huge hockey and football fan, do you have the same level of support for them? The comparison I am trying to make is that I am a huge baseball and football fan and have supported the Giants during the John McVay and Ray Handley years. I supported the Mets through the Joe Torre, Jeff Torborg, and Art Howe years. On the other hand, I root for the Devils and the Nets, but because I am not a huge hockey or basketball fan, I couldn’t care less how much effort they put forth. I like it when their good, and pretty much ignore them when they’re bad (although it’s been a long time since the Devils were bad. )

[Hammer]

Scar, are you going to be at any of the games this weekend? I'll be at tomorrow's game, hoping Pat Burrell keeps up his great record of success against the Mets !

[Scar]

No. I haven't even been to Shea this year. I usually only go a couple times a year because it's about a 2 hour drive (depending on traffic), but this year the parking situation is bad because of the new stadium construction. Make sure you arrive very early if you're driving.

Philly is an hour or less for me.

[Hammer]

I am lucky as I do not have to drive to the game. My sister lives in Weehawken, so I park my car by her place and we take a $2 shuttle to Port Authority, then pick up the 7 train to the stadium. So I have gone to a couple of games at Shea this year.

[Ian]

According to your list, there are 16 teams doing less than the Phillies are. Should their fans refuse to support them? Are you a huge baseball fan? You are apparently a huge hockey and football fan, do you have the same level of support for them? The comparison I am trying to make is that I am a huge baseball and football fan and have supported the Giants during the John McVay and Ray Handley years. I supported the Mets through the Joe Torre, Jeff Torborg, and Art Howe years. On the other hand, I root for the Devils and the Nets, but because I am not a huge hockey or basketball fan, I couldn’t care less how much effort they put forth. I like it when their good, and pretty much ignore them when they’re bad (although it’s been a long time since the Devils were bad. )

There's a difference, though. You're talking about some teams who had bad eras ... every team has that.

The Phillies are the all-time losingest franchise in all of pro sports. In excess of 10,000 losses and only one single, solitary championship in their 100+ year history.

Also, I'm not much more than a casual baseball fan. Football and hockey are my sports, so yes ... I support the Eagles and Flyers pretty much religiously.

[PirateLover]

The Phillies are the all-time losingest franchise in all of pro sports. In excess of 10,000 losses and only one single, solitary championship in their 100+ year history.

They are also the oldest one city, one nickname team in sports history. And it's not like you can pin 10,000 losses on this team and this management. Another thing to remember is that many of those losses actually come from the turn of the century. The Phillies were the throwaway team in this town. No one cared about them or went to games because most had been fan of the Athletics who moved to Oakland in 1890. In the Phillies first season they were 17-81....

I agree with you that there hasn't been enough done to make this current team as good as possible, but many of the pieces are there. They didn't have one winning season from 1993-2001. Since then they are over .500 and have finished 2nd in NL East (I think 2 years they might've been 3rd).

I'm very passionate about almost all Philly teams. I guess the Sixers might be my "casual" team. But the Phillies were my first my love when it came to pro sports and I just can't abandon them. Even in their worst years I went to countless games and hoped for the best. Now I've learned to add a prefix to that sentence... "expect the worst"

[Ian]

This team is just so maddening ... last night we took our sixth in a row from the Mets, but we still continue to lose to the teams we should be beating the snot out of.

Quite honestly, I really hope they somehow sneak into the playoffs and face the Mets, because I have no doubt we'd win that series!

[PirateLover]

This team is just so maddening ... last night we took our sixth in a row from the Mets, but we still continue to lose to the teams we should be beating the snot out of.

Can't disagree there. I don't get why we always have problems with those stupid fish who are at the bottom of the league!!! SO frustrating.

[Scar]

Great game last night.

...most had been fan of the Athletics who moved to Oakland in 1890.

Sorry, but I'm anel about stuff like this.

The A's moved from Philly after the 1954 season. Played in Kansas City from 1955 - 1967. Oakland since 1968.