Dues

[Aurora]

A look at the dues history of OKW (the oldest DVC resort), shows an average increase of 3.6 percent a year. Here are the percentage increases by year:

1992 2
1993 2.7
1994 2.6
1995 5.1
1996 5.2
1997 5
1998 1
1999 -.03
2000 0
2001 -1
2002 2.8
2003 8.3
2004 5.4
2005 4.9
2006 9.8
2007 3.7
2008 3.6
2009 3.7

Obviously there were a couple of big jumps, and a couple of years when dues actually went down, but I couldn't tell you the reasons. Maybe an OKW owner can.

[DizneeRX]

It's actually more like 15 days, but your point is still valid.

However, consider the fact that if I get 15 days vacation a year for 50 years out of my contract that's 750 total vacation days over the length of my contract.

We paid about $14,000 for our contract. That works out to $18 per day. The $700 per year adds on $47 per day, for a total of $65 a day.

15 days? - Sure, if you stay in a studio, but from prior posts, (yes, I have this “thing” about timeshares and read almost all of the DVC threads….), you seem to go for the 1 bedroom suites, right? So, based on the TimeShare Store’s DVC point chart, you would get 8 days in a 1 bedroom (2 Sunday – Thursday stays) for 160 points.

So for 8 days, just the dues would be $87.50 per day – this year. add the $18.00 fo your contract and you're at $105.50 / day...this year.

But in 10 years, where will you be? Taking your $700 payment @ a modest 3.5% annual increase and your dues will be $987.50 (approx. $123.00 per day). + $18.00 for your contract and you're at $141.00 / day.

20 years? using the same 3.5% annual increase it comes to $1392 for the dues ( $174.00 / day) +$18.00 for a total of $192.00 / day.

In 50 years? same 3.5% annual increase in dues and it comes to $3909 for the dues ($488.00/day) + $18 for a grand total of $506.00/day.

That's a big leap from $65.00 per day....

[Ian]

Well yeah, but that's my personal choice. I was obviously speaking from the bottom line, but the value proposition is still identical because by staying in the 1BR I'm taking advantage of more luxurious and, thereforce, higher dollar value accomodations.

Just for FYI purposes, a 1BR at Saratoga currently goes for around $500 a night so even at $105 a day or whatever I'm still OBVIOUSLY getting a great value.

And again ... the rate of increase of the dues is irrelevant as long as it outpaces the rate of inflation. In 1974 the cost of a night's stay at the Contemporary was about $30 a night. Now it's about $400 a night. That's an increase of about 1,233.33% over the last 35 years.

Assuming your DVC dues were the same $30 and that they increased by 3.5% a year over that same time period you'd only be up to about $103.50 per night.

Pretty significant difference, eh?

[DizneyRox]

We quickly realized, though, that for the size accomodations we prefer and how often we like to visit that 160 points wasn't enough ... hence the 200 point BLT add-on.

Ian, did you guys actually spend some time thinking through the options at 160 points, and now an adidtional 200 points?

I'm just curious, as we (me) seem to be in the minority on what we choose for our points. Our first contract we thought about 2 days on the amount of points we really needed. We went back and forth on when it's just us what we could do, what we would realistically be able to do with a child(or two) and then again when we got older. Changing room preferences from studio to 1BR and back, and even various times during the year and how if we went for a week this year, we could do a week at Christmas next, or we could bank and borrow one year to go hog wild, etc. Honestly, you even need to plan for NOT getting the actual accomodations, it may be necessary to upgrade/downgrade if your dates aren't flexible, etc.

Really it was a bad flashback to my discreet math class!

What we ultimately settled on was perfect. And, when we went through the process again, out came all the scenarios again, although this time we actually had real world experience with what and how it all worked. The idea is to limit your costs in dues but still get what you NEED out of the points.

Did you do the same? Have others?

In looking at the resales, I see mostly clean point allotments, 150, 200, 300, or the smaller add-ons 25, 50, etc. None of those numbers ever worked in any of our calculations, we saw a lot of "waste" be it unused points, large amounts of carry over, or frequent borrowing to cover odd length vacations, etc.

Any thoughts around this? Maybe we're just weird!

[Ian]

Speaking very honestly, when we bought SSR no. We just bought the minimum to "dip our toes in the water."

But when we bought BLT, absolutely. We planned out exactly what we'd want to use those points for each year (which came to about 196 points per year) and just rounded up to 200 to give ourselves a buffer.

We even considered things like possible job changes that would reduce our ability to vacation as frequently, when the kids might stop coming with us, etc.

[MarkC]

I don't like paying the dues more than anyone else, but we keep needing to remind ourselves that this is not a motel, this a building that we are all owners of. We expect it to be nice when we use it to protect our ownership and our enjoyment when we visit, so this is the cost of it. I just consider myself ridiculously fortunate enough to own a Disney timeshare, as most people I know can never afford to even visit WDW once in their lifetimes. For me it's like my season football, basketball,baseball and volleyball tickets-- I cringe when I pay the bills, but then I forget about it and enjoy it. It's why I work. Mark

[DizneeRX]

Well yeah, but that's my personal choice. I was obviously speaking from the bottom line, but the value proposition is still identical because by staying in the 1BR I'm taking advantage of more luxurious and, thereforce, higher dollar value accomodations.

Just for FYI purposes, a 1BR at Saratoga currently goes for around $500 a night so even at $105 a day or whatever I'm still OBVIOUSLY getting a great value.

And again ... the rate of increase of the dues is irrelevant as long as it outpaces the rate of inflation. In 1974 the cost of a night's stay at the Contemporary was about $30 a night. Now it's about $400 a night. That's an increase of about 1,233.33% over the last 35 years.

Assuming your DVC dues were the same $30 and that they increased by 3.5% a year over that same time period you'd only be up to about $103.50 per night.

Pretty significant difference, eh?

Um, yeah, okay...

You really didn't buy that "1,233% increase" line from your DVC salesman, did you? It's really pretty simple to do the math yourself - I'll help you:

The cost of a night's stay at the Contemporary increased 6.8% annually over those 35 years.

I have no idea what the price of a night at the Contemporary was in 1974, so I'll accept your $30.00 starting point. A quick search of some travel sites, using some random dates and - voila! - The Contemporary for $299.00 / night. Use a simple present value formula and solve the rate...6.8%

To your other points - I can get in to Saratoga for about $180 - 200 per night by renting some of the many available DVC points. $200 - not $500.

The rate of increase of the dues is relevant because, well, this is a thread about the increase in dues...

As an aside - did your salesman also tell you about the 400 gajillion% increase in the price of an AK ticket? He should have - it's in their script.

But anyway...when this kind of misleading, incorrect and blatantly wrong information is presented...well, it's just a shame that some people might actually believe it.

[Hammer]

I do not think the rise in dues is out of line at all. I bought my DVC membership through resale, so no one gave me a sales pitch. I came to my decision to buy my 150 points at SSR through doing my own research and analyze my WDW accommodation expenses. Before I bought DVC, I would go to WDW for a 5 night trip every October, alternating between staying at a lower end deluxe hotel (Wilderness Lodge) and Coronado Springs. My hotel room costs for Coronado were $755 (in 2006, incl. tax) and $1055 for Wilderness Lodge (in 2007, incl.tax). Contrast that with the cost of my 2009 DVC dues, which are $659 and you see I am coming out ahead, plus I have more points left which allow to make additional short trips when I visit my parents in Clearwater.


Let's look at it another way. I am staying for one night in a 1-BR at SSR on March 8 (attending the Braves/Phillies game that afternoon) using 27 points. Renting those points from someone would cost me $297 (using a cost of $11/pt). Per Expedia and Travelocity (Orbitz kept crashing my browser), the cost of a 1 BR at SSR on March 8 is $380 without tax. WDW is running a special at that time and if a 1 BR at SSR was available, the rate I think would be $259 (I'm sending a PM to Nanci and MJ for verification). This is just the cost for one night. I stay 3 nights, and it is the same price as my dues.

Oh, I could just stay at lower level (in the WDW hotel matrix) or smaller accommodations, but truthfully I don't want to. I want as much space to spread out and relax as my money can buy as that is what a vacation is to me.

[Aurora]

Um, yeah, okay...

You really didn't buy that "1,233% increase" line from your DVC salesman, did you? It's really pretty simple to do the math yourself - I'll help you:

The cost of a night's stay at the Contemporary increased 6.8% annually over those 35 years.

I have no idea what the price of a night at the Contemporary was in 1974, so I'll accept your $30.00 starting point. A quick search of some travel sites, using some random dates and - voila! - The Contemporary for $299.00 / night. Use a simple present value formula and solve the rate...6.8%

To your other points - I can get in to Saratoga for about $180 - 200 per night by renting some of the many available DVC points. $200 - not $500.

The rate of increase of the dues is relevant because, well, this is a thread about the increase in dues...

As an aside - did your salesman also tell you about the 400 gajillion% increase in the price of an AK ticket? He should have - it's in their script.

But anyway...when this kind of misleading, incorrect and blatantly wrong information is presented...well, it's just a shame that some people might actually believe it.

Why is the 1,200 percent increase not valid? Even if you use your $299 current sale room rate, it's still nearly a 1,000 percent increase. And if you use your 6.8 percent annual rate increase, it's still nearly twice as much as a 3.5 percent annual dues increase, which compounded makes a huge difference.

And yes, there's no way to cap how much dues go up, but we at least have a bit of history in OKW. So if you assumed in 1992 that rates would go up by an average of 3.5 percent a year, by 2009 you would have been right.

[Hammer]

Just to add that I got the 1-BR price from Nanci at MJ. It is $379, plus tax for a 1-br on March 8th.

[DizneeRX]

Why is the 1,200 percent increase not valid? Even if you use your $299 current sale room rate, it's still nearly a 1,000 percent increase. And if you use your 6.8 percent annual rate increase, it's still nearly twice as much as a 3.5 percent annual dues increase, which compounded makes a huge difference.

And yes, there's no way to cap how much dues go up, but we at least have a bit of history in OKW. So if you assumed in 1992 that rates would go up by an average of 3.5 percent a year, by 2009 you would have been right.

Why? Because it's misleading, disingenuous, and does not follow any generally accepted method for presenting that type of information. That ridiculous number is used for only one reason - to create a sense of urgency in the prospective buyer to get him or her to buy quickly. No other reason.

Look - do you have a mortgage? Car loan? credit card? or a savings account? CD? mutual funds? investment account? How is the "rate" information handled on those? It's shown annually - and do you know why? To give the customers a fair opportunity to evaluate the products.

And to be clear - that is not MY 6.8% annual rate. The annual rate IS 6.8%. Nothing hidden, no agendas, don't care if you buy this or not - 6.8% annual rate.

By the way - I saw earlier in the thread that you wrote that OKW dues have increased an average of 3.6% per year. Why did you chose to state the increase in that manner? Why 3.6% per year? Why not "OKW dues have increased 88% since 1991?"

[DizneeRX]

I do not think the rise in dues is out of line at all. I bought my DVC membership through resale, so no one gave me a sales pitch. I came to my decision to buy my 150 points at SSR through doing my own research and analyze my WDW accommodation expenses. Before I bought DVC, I would go to WDW for a 5 night trip every October, alternating between staying at a lower end deluxe hotel (Wilderness Lodge) and Coronado Springs. My hotel room costs for Coronado were $755 (in 2006, incl. tax) and $1055 for Wilderness Lodge (in 2007, incl.tax). Contrast that with the cost of my 2009 DVC dues, which are $659 and you see I am coming out ahead, plus I have more points left which allow to make additional short trips when I visit my parents in Clearwater.


Let's look at it another way. I am staying for one night in a 1-BR at SSR on March 8 (attending the Braves/Phillies game that afternoon) using 27 points. Renting those points from someone would cost me $297 (using a cost of $11/pt). Per Expedia and Travelocity (Orbitz kept crashing my browser), the cost of a 1 BR at SSR on March 8 is $380 without tax. WDW is running a special at that time and if a 1 BR at SSR was available, the rate I think would be $259 (I'm sending a PM to Nanci and MJ for verification). This is just the cost for one night. I stay 3 nights, and it is the same price as my dues.

Oh, I could just stay at lower level (in the WDW hotel matrix) or smaller accommodations, but truthfully I don't want to. I want as much space to spread out and relax as my money can buy as that is what a vacation is to me.

I'm really not sure why you (and Ian) insist on comparing the DVC annual dues to the current price of a room. That's apples to oranges. If you take the time to read my original post, I was commenting that, IMO, the annual dues, particularly when you look at them "per day", are high... especially after you've already paid - what? $13,000 or $14,000 upfront for your "vacations", IMO.

[Hammer]

I'm really not sure why you (and Ian) insist on comparing the DVC annual dues to the current price of a room. That's apples to oranges. If you take the time to read my original post, I was commenting that, IMO, the annual dues, particularly when you look at them "per day", are high... especially after you've already paid - what? $13,000 or $14,000 upfront for your "vacations", IMO.

I won't presume to speak for Ian, but for the size of accommodations you can use with your points, it is worth it to me. I like 1 bedroom accommodations when my sister and I go so we have room to spread out. When Mom and Dad join us, we like 2 bedroom villas. The cost for these rooms would be expensive if I booked them through Disney or rented DVC points. Basically, I see it as paying ahead for most of my vacations. We are not going to agree on this topic, but neither of us is wrong because it is our personal opinions.

[Aurora]

Why? Because it's misleading, disingenuous, and does not follow any generally accepted method for presenting that type of information. That ridiculous number is used for only one reason - to create a sense of urgency in the prospective buyer to get him or her to buy quickly. No other reason.

Look - do you have a mortgage? Car loan? credit card? or a savings account? CD? mutual funds? investment account? How is the "rate" information handled on those? It's shown annually - and do you know why? To give the customers a fair opportunity to evaluate the products.

And to be clear - that is not MY 6.8% annual rate. The annual rate IS 6.8%. Nothing hidden, no agendas, don't care if you buy this or not - 6.8% annual rate.

By the way - I saw earlier in the thread that you wrote that OKW dues have increased an average of 3.6% per year. Why did you chose to state the increase in that manner? Why 3.6% per year? Why not "OKW dues have increased 88% since 1991?"

I could have, but I was talking about dues rates at the time, not room rates, and I was trying to compare apples to apples.

I actually think a much better illustration is just knowing what the dollar-per-point dues are each year. Percentages, any way you look at it, are only tools to help you project what you can expect your dues to be in the future as it relates to your dollar-per-point cost.

In other words, knowing annual rate increases only helps me if I can extrapolate that to my dues rate in dollars -- for example, if I think I can afford an increase from, for example at OKW, $2.5 dollars per point in 1991 to $4.4 dollars in 2009.

Yes, that's a 76 percent increase over that period of time, but if I own 200 points, that's only $380 dollars more in 2009 than in 1991. And IMHO, that's very reasonable.

As opposed to Hammer and Ian, I also add in the original cost of buying into DVC to determine my room cost, but that's a debate for another thread.

[Here we go again...]

Um, yeah, okay...

You really didn't buy that "1,233% increase" line from your DVC salesman, did you? It's really pretty simple to do the math yourself - I'll help you:

The cost of a night's stay at the Contemporary increased 6.8% annually over those 35 years.

I have no idea what the price of a night at the Contemporary was in 1974, so I'll accept your $30.00 starting point. A quick search of some travel sites, using some random dates and - voila! - The Contemporary for $299.00 / night. Use a simple present value formula and solve the rate...6.8%

To your other points - I can get in to Saratoga for about $180 - 200 per night by renting some of the many available DVC points. $200 - not $500.

The rate of increase of the dues is relevant because, well, this is a thread about the increase in dues...

As an aside - did your salesman also tell you about the 400 gajillion% increase in the price of an AK ticket? He should have - it's in their script.

But anyway...when this kind of misleading, incorrect and blatantly wrong information is presented...well, it's just a shame that some people might actually believe it.

I guess DVC is not right for some people. For us it is great. The 1 and 2 bedroom villa we use are worth a lot more to us than sitting down trying to figure out whether or not we are coming out ahead on this deal.

We purchased DVC not just for us, but for our kids and grand kids. The original money put down was our gift to them. It can not be factored in at any point... it is a done deal.
So, going forward, we pay (or they pay after we are gone) dues only and have points at SSR and Bay Lake. Enough points that both of my daughters can visit 2 times a year unless they want to go at Christmas.

BTW... there was no sales pitch with DVC. We saw the rooms, got information and we were sent on our way. No pressure, no information unless we asked for it. I hope it is the same for everyone else. I like knowing that there is no pressure with DVC.

[dlpmikki]

Guys, can we please keep on topic. This was originally about how much the dues are this year. It is not about how DVC may be trying to sell itself. We have separate topics for pros and cons of DVC - please keep those types of discussion there. Thank you.