Shamu kills a trainer

[thrillme]

Seaworld does an INCREDIBLE job with their animals and they LOVE them with all their hearts. The trainers (and I personnally know some) dedicate their lives to them because it's what they love more than anything. They have a great joy in going to work each day. Many of the vets that take care of these animals sometimes put in streaches that may go 24 hours straight because they're so dedicated they don't want t miss a moment (yes I actually talked to a very tired vet one time that had been observing the number of times a mother dolphin took her newborn to the top for air).

Many of the animals in Seaworld are taken in, treated for injuries and illness and then "released". Some have injuries in which they can NEVER be released and others...are born there. But they are treated like kings. It's not all about the money...HUGE mistake to say that. They put so much into rehabilitation and study and AWARENESS...it's not all about the money...not at SeaWorld.

We have learned so much from these animals. Everything we "learn" we can utilize to help keep them alive in the wild for future generations. Some people would never care a bit about some "fish" in the wild without actually being given the opportunity to actually SEE one in person and to learn the "respect" it commands. Many people who go to the shows are become so much MORE aware of enviromental issues and "hunting" that they become more active in the attempt to "protect" these creatures.

Sigfried and Roy had their attack by Roy's beloved Tiger...Before he even made it to the hospital...Roy begged people not to hurt the animal. He loved him. Roy is recovering and Montecore's out of show business but still in a BEAUTIFUL facility where he enjoys frolicking with other tigers. Many zoos have been responsible for keeping a species alive through breeding programs including Sigfried and Roy's.

A lot of the "tricks" the animals do...they do in the wild. You will NOT teach an animal of that size and caliber to do something it doesn't want to do. There's a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that many people just don't know.

All animals including HUMANS are dangerous. How many wild animal attacks have there been in comparison to a DOG attack or worse yet...what humans do.

Telling a Seaworld trainer not to work with the animals they LOVE because they "could" be dangerous...would be like telling an astronaut not to go to Mars.

My prayers go out to this dedicated trainer and her family. It was reported that it's the ONLY thing she ever wanted to do since she was 9 years old. I can guarantee if she could speak right now she would voice LOUDLY...not to change a thing. Ask Roy Horn...he went back to the stage.

[princessgirls]

Just a tragedy all the way around.

My kids were just awestruck by the Shamu show.
They left there with a respect for both the animals and their trainers.

After being in a SeaWorld park a few times, I have always felt that they treat the animals in their care with dignity and respect, and truly care for them.

My heart goes out to the trainer and her family, and also to the people that witnessed such a horror.
Julie

[BrerGnat]

I don't think people are necessarily villainizing the whale. I don't think anyone here really blames the whale...

And, I don't doubt that the trainers love those animals (all animal trainers) and respect them to the utmost. Sea World most definitely does good work. I applaud them for their rehabilitation and conservation efforts.

However, I find it VERY difficult to understand how they can be on two sides of the coin at the same time. I understand that many of these large animals have been rescued, and would not survive in the wild. I understand that whales born in captivity CANNOT be sent out into the wild. And, this is the problem. Sea World CONTINUES to breed whales in captivity. This, in my opinion, is irresponsible, greedy, and just plain wrong.

"Shamu" is an essential component of the Sea World empire. It is a huge money maker for them, bottom line. If it weren't, they wouldn't continue to breed these whales to use IN PERFORMANCE SHOWS for humans. The whale in this incident has sired 30 offspring, in captivity. 30!!! What's the point of doing this? Sea World is perpetuating the cycle of whales being born into captivity and NOT being allowed to live as NATURE intended. These animals are not domesticated animals, like dogs. They do not develop properly in captivity. These animals in the wild are VICIOUS killers. Yes, they are magnificent. Yes, they command respect. But, that respect can be obtained by simply seeing these creatures in their natural habitat, and understanding their position in the "circle of life", if you will.

I have to wonder too...why aren't there any blue whales in captivity? Humpback whales?

The answer is pretty simple. Because they are too big, and they aren't "cute" like Orcas. It makes me think of Panda Bears. We think of them as "cute", but Panda Bears are also extremely vicious wild animals. You only see the "cute" whales in captivity, like Belugas, and Orcas. It's done for entertainment purposes, not because it does ANYTHING to help the animals.

Go on a cruise to Alaska. See whales, including Orcas in the wild. THEN, you will have real respect for them. I have had this experience, and perhaps THIS is why I felt the way I did last year at Sea World San Diego. You don't garner respect for something by seeing it confined.

[Dulcee]

It's done for entertainment purposes, not because it does ANYTHING to help the animals.

Go on a cruise to Alaska. See whales, including Orcas in the wild. THEN, you will have real respect for them. I have had this experience, and perhaps THIS is why I felt the way I did last year at Sea World San Diego. You don't garner respect for something by seeing it confined.

Unfortuantly few people will be able to see any of these animals in a more natural setting. And quite often its seeing these animals that makes us realize that these animals need our respect and our protection.

And not for nothing, if breeding of animals didn't happen in captivity, (think Pandas, Bald Eagles, Prezewalski horses, the hairy rino and many, many others) these animals would no longer survive in the wild.

I agree its often hard to see these magnificent animals in captivity and yes for some people the bottom line is all about the money made, but for far more in the business its about creating a sense of respect and responsibility in the average person, teaching wildlife conservation and helping dying species in what at the moment is the best way we know how.

[Joannelet]

I don't think people are necessarily villainizing the whale. I don't think anyone here really blames the whale...

And, I don't doubt that the trainers love those animals (all animal trainers) and respect them to the utmost. Sea World most definitely does good work. I applaud them for their rehabilitation and conservation efforts.

However, I find it VERY difficult to understand how they can be on two sides of the coin at the same time. I understand that many of these large animals have been rescued, and would not survive in the wild. I understand that whales born in captivity CANNOT be sent out into the wild. And, this is the problem. Sea World CONTINUES to breed whales in captivity. This, in my opinion, is irresponsible, greedy, and just plain wrong.

"Shamu" is an essential component of the Sea World empire. It is a huge money maker for them, bottom line. If it weren't, they wouldn't continue to breed these whales to use IN PERFORMANCE SHOWS for humans. The whale in this incident has sired 30 offspring, in captivity. 30!!! What's the point of doing this? Sea World is perpetuating the cycle of whales being born into captivity and NOT being allowed to live as NATURE intended. These animals are not domesticated animals, like dogs. They do not develop properly in captivity. These animals in the wild are VICIOUS killers. Yes, they are magnificent. Yes, they command respect. But, that respect can be obtained by simply seeing these creatures in their natural habitat, and understanding their position in the "circle of life", if you will.

I have to wonder too...why aren't there any blue whales in captivity? Humpback whales?

The answer is pretty simple. Because they are too big, and they aren't "cute" like Orcas. It makes me think of Panda Bears. We think of them as "cute", but Panda Bears are also extremely vicious wild animals. You only see the "cute" whales in captivity, like Belugas, and Orcas. It's done for entertainment purposes, not because it does ANYTHING to help the animals.

Go on a cruise to Alaska. See whales, including Orcas in the wild. THEN, you will have real respect for them. I have had this experience, and perhaps THIS is why I felt the way I did last year at Sea World San Diego. You don't garner respect for something by seeing it confined.

Thank YOU!!! This is exactly right!!
No one is saying that the trainers do not LOVE these animals. That is not the point.
The point is that these orca whales that are in captivity should NOT be performing for us. It is one thing to study these animals and their habitats (their NATURAL habitats) and another to put them in pools and follow commands by whistles. This is NOT to show us how beautiful these creatures are. They are more beautiful doing what they want out in the middle of the ocean somewhere.....and us viewing from a distance.
My heart broke the entire time I was in Sea World San Diego. I know that Sea World does a lot for conservation efforts and rehab for these animals...but don't make them perform on cue for people. Its just not okay. And stop breeding them. If anything there should be limited contact with humans after rehabilitating injured ones and returning them to their rightful place.....the ocean.

[SBETigg]

I think everyone has made some great points, but I don't think we're going to change any minds or Sea World's practices by debating it here.

A human trainer was killed doing a job she reportedly loved. It's a tragedy, even if she and all of us are aware of the dangers involved in dealing with these whales. Sea World's reps don't know what made the whale act in this instance. Deaths of humans by whales, even in confined situations, are really rare. According to her friends, Dawn Brancheau wouldn't blame Tillikum the whale and wouldn't want him isolated or punished for his actions, which were probably not menacing by nature. I'm very sorry for the loss and my heart and prayers go out to Dawn's friends and family.

[yjgirl32]

I too don't think this is the place for a debate. My thoughts and prayers to Dawn's family, friends, and co-workers. My thoughts and prayers also go out to the unfortunate witnesses of this terrible tragedy.

[Altair]

So, should AK be closed?

[AXOAlum]

I think this is a perfect place for a "debate" because so far the discussion has been respectful and intelligent from both sides. I agree that no one (that I can tell anyway) is blaming Tilly. He is a wild animal, and indeed by very nature, a ferocious killer.

I believe there are fundamental differences between DAK and SeaWorld. DAK goes to great lengths to encourage the animals to be on stage, but does not force them out. We are privileged to have a tremendous zoo here in NC that promotes conservation and education of the animals that they have, while at the same time allowing them to live as "normally" as possible. This includes a great polar bear exhibit in which two of our polar bears were rescued from a circus in the Caribbean. The recent push has been to increase the area for the elephants & rhinos while encouraging reproduction.

Just to clarify, I am a vegetarian of 18 years, and my children are being raised veggie as well. We do not go to the circus (ever!) and we went to SeaWorld once in 2006 but that will be our first & last visit. We are sending our thoughts & prayers to the family of the trainer. We hope that Tilly will be allowed to go to a refuge that will allow him as much "normality" as possible for the remainder of his life.

(ETA: BRAVO! @ BrerGnat - very well put!)

[Mickey'sGirl]

I agree that this is exactly the place for this kind of debate. Everyone has been very respectful and there has been no admonishing of the trainer, or others who care for, love and train the animals at places such as Seaworld.

Everyone is conveying condolences for the trainer and her family, as it is indeed a shame that she lost her life at the "hand" of a creature she loved and cared for.

[PirateLover]

First things first, my heart goes out to the family and friends of the trainer.

Go on a cruise to Alaska. See whales, including Orcas in the wild. THEN, you will have real respect for them. I have had this experience, and perhaps THIS is why I felt the way I did last year at Sea World San Diego. You don't garner respect for something by seeing it confined.

I don't have a problem with most of your opinions in this thread concerning captivity of whales as I tend to side with you, but with all due respect, I really disagree with this statement. I'm sure an Alaskan cruise is an amazing experience, but most people will not be able to have that opportunity in their lifetime. To say that you cannot garner real respect for an animal if you've never seen it live in it's natural habitat is unfair. Maybe your awareness is heightened even more, but I think there are plenty of people out there who support and respect wildlife even though they've only seen the animals in person confined. I have never seen a whale in person or confined, but I can give another example. I am a supporter of the World Wildlife Fund. Their logo features a Panda, one of my favorite animals. Yes, they are cute, which is what originally attracted me to them as a child. As I grew I learned more about them, did research, watched documentaries, etc. and fell more in love with the complex animal. Unless I go to China I will never see them in their natural habitat, however I was able to see them in the Washington DC zoo and it was a great experience for me, and I'm glad to have had that opportunity. I would say I have a real respect for them.

[Patricia]

Sadly, Tillikum was captured in Iceland and and acquired specifically for show, he wasn't rescued. The public outcry was large at the time as they already had quite a few whale deaths in the park.

He was captured with the two female orcas (also sent to Sealand) that were with him when a trainer Keltie Byrne was killed in Sealand of the Pacific in Victoria.

What happened in that accident was that the orcas were not very happy with each other and often didn't get along. Because of their noted aggressive behavior the trainers at Sealand did not get in the water with the them. Unfortunately, Keltie fell into the tank where the 3 whales proceeded to submerge her. After this incident Sealand closed and the whales were all sold to US parks. Two of them, Tillikum and Nootka, went to Seaworld Orlando.

I'll probably get a lot of slack for this but is my own feelings on the subject and I'll state up front that I'm not bashing anyone who likes the Shamu show. I've gone to see the show myself and unexpectedly found it to be upsetting. Especially when they announced that Shamu didn't want to perform that day and had refused to come out of his holding pen. How do you argue with a cranky orca?

I feel that just because we may never getting a chance to see an orca up close and personal, doesn't make it a good idea to keep them in tanks, swimming in circles and make them do tricks with trainers. You don't have to be on a cruise to see them either. There are places they can be seen from shore. Sometimes while on ferry crossings between Victoria and Vancouver you'll be treated to a pod swimming by the ship. When they are in the wild swimming and jumping along the ferries, their dorsal fin erect as it should be.. that's when you can truly respect them for their magnificence and only then will you perhaps find it very difficult to see them captive behaving like dogs.

If, for whatever reason, they can't be released then at least make the shows educational and informative and stop the tricks with trainers in the water. It's long overdue.

[BrerGnat]

Patricia:

When we saw the Orcas, it was just off the coast of Vancouver. We had just left port maybe an hour prior (our ship left from Vancouver). It was an amazing thing to see the pod of Orcas. Something I will never forget. I was only 15 years old at the time and I remember it like it was yesterday.

I was, indeed, very lucky to have that experience. After all, taking a cruise to Alaska doesn't guarantee you'll see ANY wildlife. We just got lucky.

I know not everyone can have that experience, but that doesn't make it okay to keep these animals confined and build entertainment shows around them.

If a whale is going to be kept in a tank, it should be because that is the BEST and SAFEST place for THAT whale. And, like Patricia said, use that whale to teach others about them, and how we can help them in the wild. Stop the perfomance shows...

[MegaDisney]

A killer whale is not a whale, but a dolphin, the largest of the species.

Although debated among experts, it is beleived that an erect dorsal fin is a sign of health and vitality.

I have never seen an adult Orca in captivity with an erect dorsal fin. But most if not all photos I have seen of wild Orcas, they are erect.

In the photos that follow you can see the difference:

Healthy Dorsal Fin

Unhealthy Dorsal Fin

I think it cruel to keep these majestic animals in captivity.

My heart goes out to the family of the victim and the people who witnessed this horrific event.

I do not blame the Orca.

[Patricia]

Yes, they are a part of the dolphin family, which is why I only refer to them as orcas. Yes, they only have a collapsed dorsal fin in captivity, maybe from swimming in circles? They may have a collapsed dorsal in the wild if they are ill.

The killer whale name came from their large size and their tendency to hunt larger animals in groups. They have been know to actually hunt whales and started out with the nick name whale killers, which was later somehow switched to killer whale.

Still a cute member of the dolphin family.

[dnickels]

BrerGnat: A+ couldn't agree more!

I feel that just because we may never getting a chance to see an orca up close and personal, doesn't make it a good idea to keep them in tanks, swimming in circles and make them do tricks with trainers.

Great point here Patricia and I wish it extended to a lot of other animals and parks as well (even AK). This isn't the 1700s where our only options to see an animal were in person or someone's drawing. Photos, television, the internet, we have an unprecedented ability to see wild animals like no generation of human beings ever has before. I suppose molded concrete rocks, a few acres and bigger tanks are better than a swimming pool and steel cages but not by much. Even the 'best' zoos or parks reduce the normal range of an animal to a miniscule fraction of what they would normally have in the wild.

As an interesting aside, India, a country that most Americans would consider 3rd world, recently banned elephants from zoos and circuses and is moving them to preserves. Hope one day we follow that type of lead.

[Patricia]

BrerGnat: A+ couldn't agree more!

Great point here Patricia and I wish it extended to a lot of other animals and parks as well (even AK). This isn't the 1700s where our only options to see an animal were in person or someone's drawing. Photos, television, the internet, we have an unprecedented ability to see wild animals like no generation of human beings ever has before. I suppose molded concrete rocks, a few acres and bigger tanks are better than a swimming pool and steel cages but not by much. Even the 'best' zoos or parks reduce the normal range of an animal to a miniscule fraction of what they would normally have in the wild.

We just had this conversation over dinner a few nights ago. The fact that we have a virtual world available to us has opened up opportunities for us to see animals in the wild like never before.

As an interesting aside, India, a country that most Americans would consider 3rd world, recently banned elephants from zoos and circuses and is moving them to preserves. Hope one day we follow that type of lead.

Circuses are the worst offenders, they do nothing to teach children about the animal or it's natural habitat or behaviors. A circus act may even make it presumable that wild animals are only playful and Ok to approach. This is what I found upsetting with the large marine animal acts. They are nothing more than a water circus act using wild animals.

Sweden, Austria, Israel, India, Denmark, Croatia, Costa Rica, Finland and Singapore (I'm sure there are some I'm missing) have all complete bans or restricted use of wild animals for entertainment. In 2009, Bolivia was the first to ban all circus animals, including domestic animals. Several US and Canadian cities have outright bans or restrictions in place for circus acts that use wild animals for the use of entertainment. I'm happy to live in one such city. I'm just as happy and entertained to see modern circuses that leave the wild animals out all together, such as Cirque Du Soleil.

The way I support these types of changes, so they continue, is by talking with my pocket book when I disagree with certain practices. After being uncomfortable on my first visit, I haven't returned to Seaworld and as a personal choice I don't swim with captive dolphins either.. well, I don't swim anyway.
I also don't stay at Animal Kingdom Lodge. I don't feel comfortable with the small area the animals are in and don't feel they are needed there to make my stay any more comfortable. I think it's a beautiful resort that could stand on it's own without the animals.

Again, these are only my personal choices, everyone has their own comfort zone.

[NJGIRL]

The way I support these types of changes, so they continue, is by talking with my pocket book when I disagree with certain practices. After being uncomfortable on my first visit, I haven't returned to Seaworld and as a personal choice I don't swim with captive dolphins either.. well, I don't swim anyway.
I also don't stay at Animal Kingdom Lodge. I don't feel comfortable with the small area the animals are in and don't feel they are needed there to make my stay any more comfortable. I think it's a beautiful resort that could stand on it's own without the animals.

This is exactly what I do. My son is 12 years old and has never been to a zoo or circus or Seaworld. When he had class trips that involved going to the zoo or circus I kept him home and took him to the Great Wolf Lodge for the weekend instead as a treat. I really don't like that AK has animals either. We have a big aquarium 30 mins from us but have never been there either. While there is still a demand for this type of "entertainment" the show will go on.

[IamBelle]

Let me first say that I send pixie dust to the trainer's family...


Now for my thoughts...
I think AK is different from SeaWorld: SW exposes the whales and seals doing shows and tricks that they necessarily wouldn't do in the wild. They mix trainer and wild animal a lot, which in this case, caused this tragic accident.
In AK, as far as I know, the animals are in pretty much their normal habitat, most have caretakers, not trainers, and therefore accidents are less likely to happen in AK. The animal shows in AK, which I think is only the Flights of Wonder, is very protected, with the trainers wearing the correct gloves, etc to prevent the birds from harming them.
Animals are important for educating the public, I mean that is the whole point of AK and SeaWorld. But they should still be treated as wild animals, no matter how close the trainers/caretakers are to them. They can be compared to a more "domesticated" animal, like dogs. No matter the bond between you and your animal, they can go back to their primitive nature and are unpredictable.

[Dulcee]

Just a thought from someone who works in an aquarium..

I work with harbor seals, large marine predators, every single day. And they "perform" every single day.

HOWEVER

As an animal trainer we spend every day educating the public in the difference between a trick and behaviors. (Magicians do tricks, animals do behaviors) 99% of captive animals outside of circuses are not taught tricks they are taught behaviors.

We gather new behaviors by watching our seals and putting a name to a behavior they execute on their own. One of our favorite ways to pick up new behaviors is to tell our seals to "be creative" this signals to them to do whatever they please. If its something new or unique we can capture the moment by adding a verbal command to what they just did and later calling up a natural behavior on cue.

Furthermore, husbandry behaviors, behaviors that help us to care for our animals are necessary in insuring the physical care of our animals.

Trust me, if a 200-250lb seal doesn't want to perform nothing you do is going to convince them otherwise.

Teaching behaviors and creating a bond between animal and trainer is an extremely important part of keeping captive animals psychologically healthy.