x pass?

[BrerGnat]

I think it's safe to say that, with a reported investment of over $1 billion in NextGen, the company must see huge profit potential in this.

That means either A. they expect to somehow reap additional income from it or B. they expect to be able to dramatically lower costs as a result of implementing it. Those are the only two things that motivate TDO.

What the guest thinks or wants doesn't enter into it as far as I can tell.

I agree. There has to be a financial motivator.

We still don't even know if these reserve FP will even be free! Maybe they will charge for that ability? And if that's the case, you can bet that everyone won't jump on board. But, some will. And maybe that will be enough to justify the implementation.

And, if they do truly automate the system, they will save a lot of money on staffing. Problem is, you can't truly automate anything 100%.

[Aurora]

I was thinking the same thing as you, Natalie. Except that I don't think paying for the FPs will deter hardly anyone who would be willing to use the system in the first place.

I'm sure Disney has watched Universal's and Six Flag's own pay versions of FP for many years and wondered whether it would fly at Disney. Maybe they've finally figured that it would.

[Ian]

I was thinking there's a good possibility they're going to use xPass as a way to convince people to book packages through WDTravel.

I suspect they're losing a lot of money because of sites like INTERCOT that have let the cat out of the bag that their package deals are basically a ripoff.

They may be looking at xPass as a value-add they can tack on to packages that might entice people to start booking them again.

[Stu29573]

I see this as a huge mistake....but then again, I've seen many things they have done lately as huge mistakes.

As for paying for it, all I can say as in an economy that is not treating my family well, I am feeling increasingly marginalized by the "drain every drop out of the customer (not "guest" any longer)" mentality of Disney.

On a practical note, I can see how it could be a disaster. On our last trip they decided to change to computer systems over on the day we arrived. They lost our reservations, special requests, and dining plans. I spent over four hours in lines dealing with issues (not to mention the time on my cell in the parks arguling with CM's who always assured me that they had everything worked out- but didn't) Bottom line, we were upgraded at no cost and we got a free night, but the magic was lost. I now saw Disney as a huge impersonal company like any other.

Now imagine that happening with XPass....

[Jared]

I have plenty of thoughts on this topic and probably will return to this thread later to write more. But for now, I think it's safe to say that Disney could not care any less about us. Which is to say, this is not a company that has any desire whatsoever to make its fans happy, particularly in Florida. Whether it's true or not, people in the company have clearly concluded that alienating people that love the product enough to post on a message board will do nothing to their bottom line -- even if we stop visiting altogether.

Walt Disney World has become the Disney corporation's cash cow. It continues to generate monumental profits regardless of Disney's expenditure or investment. It has become a playground, essentially, for nostalgia-seekers and those who don't know any better. We can debate the quality of the current Imagineering team, but we can't question their desire to redevelop the Florida parks. This comes from the higher-ups.

If you haven't had a chance to visit Disneyland yet, I strongly recommend you make the trip. It's a place where quality is still the biggest priority. I do not know when that will happen again in Florida.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Rut-roh, Ian read Jim Hill again, didn't you??? LOL...

Disney did register some new names recently. Word on the street (bus driver told me) is that it is a couple (2) months away still.

It is supposedly more than two months away, more like 2013... But then again, this is Disney/TDO, and if they can make a buck quicker, well....

Thanks for the info, Hungarian!

We'll be there for our annual visit in June...curious if we'll see anything regarding xpass.

I, for one, think it's a pretty cool concept...assuming it's eventually available to all resort levels. We'll be at the GF for our next stay and if any aspects of it are available to try, we will certainly give it a go.

I don't think you'll be seeing xpass that fast... 2013 maybe at the earliest...

If you haven't had a chance to visit Disneyland yet, I strongly recommend you make the trip. It's a place where quality is still the biggest priority. I do not know when that will happen again in Florida.

Visit Disneyland before 2015 because they will have xpass then too...

Everyone is calling doom and gloom over this but truth is, no one knows what xpass will feature... This information came from Jim Hill, the man who passes out tons of salt with his blog posts... How do we know he wasn't fed a bunch of nonsense from someone in the company who doesn't like this idea and is only using Jim Hill as a way to try to derail the project??? Jimmy-boy has been used before in such a manner, to try to cause such an uprising in Disney fans that projects have been cancelled... But then again, maybe he has legit info... Let's see how this plays out...

But, there is one thing we can all agree on here, I think, and that this is really nothing more than a cash grab on TDO's part trying to pull money out of the pockets of unknowing tourists... Rizzo's comment in the queue of MuppetVision 3D states TDO's feelings perfectly "WHAT DO THEY KNOW? THEY ARE JUST TOURISTS!"

I just want to add, I am glad others are finally coming around to seeing what I have been saying for a while now... TDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU!!!

[Jared]

I just want to add, I am glad others are finally coming around to seeing what I have been saying for a while now... TDO DOES NOT CARE ABOUT YOU!!!

It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

[DisneyGiant]

I am going to reserve judgment until details have been released.

I think this could work very well *IF* (and only if) there is a small window in which you can obtain advanced fastpasses. For example, if you can only make FP "reservations" up to 24 hours in advance, and ONLY from your resort room. Those would be parameters I could deal with, and would actually probably be very useful and a positive thing. It would be great to wake up on vacation, decide you are going to, say Epcot that day, and be able to reserve your Soarin' Fastpass from your resort room in your pajamas, at a time you plan you'll be in the park anyway. That could be great!

I can't get behind the ability to make FP reservations more than a day in advance. That's just ridiculous. I already think the 180 day advanced ADR thing is WAY over the top. I like Disneyland's 60 day policy much better.

I might be able to get into this 24 hour scheduling - from the resort room - and only if its limited to something like 2 a day.

How many people really want to make ADRs 180 days out, but feel that if they don't, they won't get in to eat anywhere? It's not true, but it leads to a huge herd mentality. Wouldn't it be great if NO ONE used ADRs and you could walk up and eat anywhere you wanted?

I don't mind making the ADR reservations 180 days out - because we have specific restaurants we like, and we (usually a party of 7) want to make sure we can get in.

So I am a planner in that regard - and non-Disney people have been known to make fun of me because I know where & when I am going to eat each day.

I agree with you both though that scheduling every attraction out is just plain old ridiculous. I have to say - the minute we walk into the park - we usually know what attraction to visit first - but are often side-tracked by the magic going on all around us - look there's Mickey - or look - streetmosphere people - or look there's garbage can guys at Epcot. This spontenaity would be lost if we were on an attraction schedule!

And I'd love to know how the tour groups would be accommodated.

My line tolerance for any attraction is usually 30 minutes. And if this new system makes that worse - I, too, may be looking to spend my vacation dollars elsewhere.

[Stu29573]

It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

And yet its the illusion that the company really needed to maintain in order to set itself apart from everyone else. Everyone knew it was bunk to a certain degree, but at least they tried. They used to really work at it, but now they don't bother much of the time...

[Ian]

Rut-roh, Ian read Jim Hill again, didn't you??? LOL...

I did see Jim's story, yes, but I have heard rumblings about some of the same things from some other places.

Also, the substance of Jim's story really wasn't much ... just some attraction names. That's not the part I have the issue with. It's the entire concept of having to plan out my trip to the nth degree 180 days in advance that I hate.

I don't mind making the ADR reservations 180 days out - because we have specific restaurants we like, and we (usually a party of 7) want to make sure we can get in.

Yeah, but even you yourself said, " ... to make sure we can get in."

If Disney didn't have this absurd 180 day advance dining reservations thing you wouldn't have to fret six months in advance about being able to get your reservations all set. I'm sure you'd prefer to be able to just walk up at whatever time happens to work for you, put your name in, and get a table with a reasonable wait time. That's what should be happening. Although I'm hearing that the recent policy change with the $10 deposit the ADR situation has improved quite a bit.

[DizneyFreak2002]

It's ridiculous that anyone ever thought otherwise. This is a case of unrequited love. That's how this relationship has always worked, and that will never change.

Sadly Jared, people actually do think TDO cares about the guests and are actually giving guests what they want... Of course, these people are also ok with a broken yeti, light bulbs out for months, paint chips in easy to see places, an entire show scene in Splash Mountain not working, etc., etc....

[DizneyFreak2002]

And yet its the illusion that the company really needed to maintain in order to set itself apart from everyone else. Everyone knew it was bunk to a certain degree, but at least they tried. They used to really work at it, but now they don't bother much of the time...

They don't bother because people will continue to inhale the pixie dust and never want to admit anything is wrong at WDW... So why try?? Do as little as possible, charge as much as possible, remove experiences and replace them with cheaper experiences, cut maintenance, do not care about show... As long as the bottom line is increasing (and the only reason it increased last year was because of the price increases not because they sold more merchandise or increased attendance in WDW) then who cares... And THAT is TDO's attitude...

[DizneyFreak2002]

I did see Jim's story, yes, but I have heard rumblings about some of the same things from some other places.

Also, the substance of Jim's story really wasn't much ... just some attraction names. That's not the part I have the issue with. It's the entire concept of having to plan out my trip to the nth degree 180 days in advance that I hate.

Yeah, but even you yourself said, " ... to make sure we can get in."

If Disney didn't have this absurd 180 day advance dining reservations thing you wouldn't have to fret six months in advance about being able to get your reservations all set. I'm sure you'd prefer to be able to just walk up at whatever time happens to work for you, put your name in, and get a table with a reasonable wait time. That's what should be happening. Although I'm hearing that the recent policy change with the $10 deposit the ADR situation has improved quite a bit.

Dude, I'm with you on the 180 day out thing... I hate it with a passion... I hate having to decide what park I want to be in 6 months out... I have done it and still have enjoyed my trips... But I hate it...

You are right too, about fretting about ADRs... Which is why I have made a decision after my last trip to no longer book ADRs... it is either counter service or I leave property... I find a lot of the table service restaurants to be blah now anyway (and way over priced)... I enjoyed my lunch at Flame Tree more than my lunch at Yak N Yeti (and I actually love Yak N Yeti)... If I want to eat at a restaurant, I will just take my chances and walk up... With this new policy, I see a lot more open ADRs than before... And Universal does 30 days out for dining, which works PERFECT in my opinion... I much prefer to book a month out than 6 months out...

I probably won't take part in xPass, as I am trying to give Disney less and less of my money (they still get my DVC payments though)... But I am also open to seeing the official word from Disney as to what xpass will be and how much it will cost (if it is even available to DVC members cause, I feel, we get left off of a lot of things, but maybe that is just me)...

[gratuspater]

(if it is even available to DVC members cause, I feel, we get left off of a lot of things, but maybe that is just me)...[/QUOTE]

That's putting it mildly, IMO, considering the the high initial cost of DVC, and the QUICKLY rising dues (BLT)(low annual dues being the main reason we choose BLT). I mean not even a ticket discount on anything less than a annual pass?! Come on TDO, give your most loyal customers a break, even if we can only make it down once a year! The nickel and diming does take away some of the magic, for me anyhow.

[Ian]

It's so funny ... the cycle is so predictable it's almost to laugh. This happens over and over in the history of corporate America (and probably corporate elsewhere as well) and has even happened previously to the Walt Disney Company!

Build up brand equity to the point that you have a huge pool of stable, reliable clients and all of a sudden the suits just cannot help themselves from starting to look for ways to exploit them for profit. Slowly but surely you allow your brand quality to erode, your image to take hits, and eventually ... it can take decades sometimmes ... you wake up and realize you no longer have that huge pool of stable, reliable clients. They've all gone elsewhere.

Read up on the history of General Motors for another textbook example of how this goes down. Same exact thing, really.

It'll catch up to TDO eventually. There's no doubt. It might take another 10 or even 20 years, but one day at some point in the future they'll wake up to find all the people (and their money) gone. But what do they care? By then they'll all be gazillionaires and they'll retire with massive golden parachutes to some beach somewhere and leave someone else to clean up the mess. And the really sad part is that once the mess is cleaned up, the cycle still start all over again.

[Polynesian Dweller]

That's putting it mildly, IMO, considering the the high initial cost of DVC, and the QUICKLY rising dues (BLT)(low annual dues being the main reason we choose BLT). I mean not even a ticket discount on anything less than a annual pass?! Come on TDO, give your most loyal customers a break, even if we can only make it down once a year! The nickel and diming does take away some of the magic, for me anyhow.

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.

[Jared]

It's so funny ... the cycle is so predictable it's almost to laugh. This happens over and over in the history of corporate America (and probably corporate elsewhere as well) and has even happened previously to the Walt Disney Company!

Build up brand equity to the point that you have a huge pool of stable, reliable clients and all of a sudden the suits just cannot help themselves from starting to look for ways to exploit them for profit. Slowly but surely you allow your brand quality to erode, your image to take hits, and eventually ... it can take decades sometimmes ... you wake up and realize you no longer have that huge pool of stable, reliable clients. They've all gone elsewhere.

Read up on the history of General Motors for another textbook example of how this goes down. Same exact thing, really.

It'll catch up to TDO eventually. There's no doubt. It might take another 10 or even 20 years, but one day at some point in the future they'll wake up to find all the people (and their money) gone. But what do they care? By then they'll all be gazillionaires and they'll retire with massive golden parachutes to some beach somewhere and leave someone else to clean up the mess. And the really sad part is that once the mess is cleaned up, the cycle still start all over again.

Everything you're saying here is definitely true, Ian, but I don't necessarily think the situation is irrevocable. All it takes is a strong leader to fall into the right position and use his authority wisely. What has happened at Disneyland over the past decade or so is proof of that. The state of the California parks under Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris was just as dire as it is in Florida today. The fans organized, demanded change and now Disneyland is in the best shape of its long and illustrious history. I don't think that's inconceivable at Walt Disney World, even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

Honestly, I don't even view this X-Pass thing as a prime example of Disney's mismanagement of the Florida resort. I suspect it will be a godsend for thousands of park-goers who will relish the opportunity to plan their vacations to the tiniest detail. You and I aren't those people, Ian, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. After countless passes on pretty much every Disney attraction, I can deal with going on fewer rides each time I visit. How many times can I honestly see The Haunted Mansion on a four-day trip? I don't continue to visit Walt Disney World for the rides -- I keep coming back for the atmosphere and the visceral experience the Disney parks still deliver. If I only cared about rides, I would spend my time at Universal, which undoubtedly has the upper edge in attraction design these days. I think that's virtually inarguable at this point.

But if Disney continues to allow its infrastructure to rot (I'm looking at you, monorail system) and operates its attractions at an embarrassingly low show quality, that's when even the biggest fans will stop coming. Fixing the darn yeti would go a long way in affirming everybody's faith.

[DizneyFreak2002]

Everything you're saying here is definitely true, Ian, but I don't necessarily think the situation is irrevocable. All it takes is a strong leader to fall into the right position and use his authority wisely. What has happened at Disneyland over the past decade or so is proof of that. The state of the California parks under Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris was just as dire as it is in Florida today. The fans organized, demanded change and now Disneyland is in the best shape of its long and illustrious history. I don't think that's inconceivable at Walt Disney World, even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

But are fans of WDW willing to organize and voice their opinions loud enough to effect change in TDO/WDW??? Doubtful... Look around on other sites... The minute anyone dare speaks of bad show, they get drowned out, called names, ridiculed, other members ask and demand that member get banned.... Sometimes even the site owner talks these people down... The question you have to ask yourself is why??? Are they inhaling the dust or are they plants from Disney's social media division trying to shut up dissenters?? It happens.. believe me, it happens... They are everywhere.. Disney is watching... And they try to shut up the people who are trying to bring their lack of keeping the Disney standard to light... I'll give you two examples, one involves me...

On one site I used to read daily, a thread was started about some of the neglect on the WDW property... The person had an inside knowledge of how things worked in WDW, especially inside the TDO building... He even knew some of the management and had friends on the inside... Well, the thread was civil.. People expressed their displeasure with the condition WDW has become under Meg's stewardship... He posted pictures, as did other members... Then, the drowning out of voices started... New members suddenly appeared and began bashing the people who were posting about the sad state of affairs... They began name calling, they trolled for lack of a better word... Baited arguments... Then other members got into it, members who have been on the site for years but had 1 or 2 posts... They started attacking the dissenters.. The site owner eventually shut the thread down due to the bickering... The thread was going good for a few months.. Where did these new people come from and why??? Why all of a sudden??? These are questions you need to ask yourself...

Now for the example with me... I tried to get a site going, one that would be the voice of the fans organization allowing them to speak up and get the change... I was going to join up with another site owner who started his own site after a falling out with members of a different site... he worked on a design for the site I proposed... We worked out what kind of content we wanted... He recruited a few people from his new site, ones with contacts and ones who lived in WDW area, to help out... I owned the site, he owned the hosting... We had things going good.. Then one day he emails me telling me he has to abandon the project because "he didn't want to ruin his reputation inside Disney" ... It is no secret Disney shuts down sites... it is no secret they have their high priced lawyers send letters to sites they deem "anti-Disney"... question is, why the selective enforcement??? Now I am not saying this guy abandoned our project because Disney told him too... I believe he was concerned Disney would remove him from his Disney lifestyle (getting perks to talk glowingly of WDW)... Even his site has changed... The people who were always critical of WDW and TDO's half-brained decisions have recently been shut up (for lack of a better term)...

Take this, add in their social media propaganda machine, and the podcasters who have an unhealthy obsession with living a Disney lifestyle, and the voices of fans who want to affect change and hold WDW to their own Disney standards, get drowned out...

But if Disney continues to allow its infrastructure to rot (I'm looking at you, monorail system) and operates its attractions at an embarrassingly low show quality, that's when even the biggest fans will stop coming. Fixing the darn yeti would go a long way in affirming everybody's faith.

And I don't know if this would ever be true either... There are still too many people who will just refuse to ever see the bad in Disney... Read some sites (which I am sure you already do) and you'll see they are out there.. Yeti is broken?? So what, it is Disney... An entire show scene in Splash Mountain isn't working?? The chickens in the riverboat scene are not moving and look like they have no heads??? So what, it is Disney... Who cares they don't invest in maintenance or infrastructure as they used to?? It is Disney... These attitudes exist in abundance... Try to get these people to see the bad show and you are deemed a doom and gloomer, a hater, funnier yet: a Universal Studios plant, or someone wasting 1000's of dollars on a Disney vacation just to find something to complain about...

TDO loves, LOVES those guests... And as long as they can fool people into believing they still produce the best product ever, they will never have to try to be the best at what they do again...

[gratuspater]

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.

Yes, I think you are right, on all points.It is just to bad that instead of rewarding customer loyalty, it is taken for granted. And yes, I think it would take something like a mass exodus of DVC owners to get their attention. But if this x-pass turns out to be a buyable fast pass option, then I will be one step closer to that move. I enjoy the parks, the rides, and the atmosphere but at some point the cost to fun ratio doesn't balance and heck my kids are just as happy to spend all day at the pool, which I can do without taking a plane, at a resort hotel just as nice, and with many entertainment options within driving distance and all for thousands less. I think its the atmosphere I would miss the most. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[Ian]

It is precisely because you are loyal customers that DVC members don't get some of the promotions. You are going anyway so why put money into promotions for you. Promotions are marketing tools not giveaways and Disney is a business not a charity. Since DVC members are coming anyway there is nothing to be gained for Disney by a promotion.

Now if DVC members stop being loyal then Disney will change and that's the scenario I think Ian is talking about. But until then Disney has no motivation.

I agree with you completely. I'm not sure it's the right approach, but I definitely think this is how Disney sees it.

If it was me, I think I'd do a bit more to reward my most loyal guests (a la the airlines) rather than just taking for granted that they're going to keep showing up forever no matter what I do.

There's little doubt that at some point it'll bite them square in the ... err ... you know.