Frustration with Lack of Spontaneity

TheVBs;2474947 wrote: BasketMommy, so sorry about your trip experience! That stinks. It is frustrating to be so conflicted on whether to stick with the plans you hashed out so far before the trip, or improvise when it looks like another park would be better.

For the people who are using too much time getting from one FP to another, my DH came up with a great plan for us and it's worked on each trip. If you already have a touring plan, book your FPs around the park based on the approx. time you'd be there anyway. This made such a huge difference for us! At the MK, we always walk down Main St., hit Adventureland and tour around the park in that direction. We hit each FP without rushing or backtracking and still had time for rides and food in between.

That is exactly what I attempted to do but I ran into problems with that plan. The biggest problem I had was trying to get the popular rides at the times I needed them. I wasn't even able to get one for 7 D mine train. The others that I did get, it was hard to coordinate them with estimated times. The next problem was the crowd flow is so weird now because of FP+. People with little experience get them for attractions that shouldn't need them and they show up in batches typically when the parades or shows end. So you will be going through your normal order trying to tick rides off the list and out of the blue the standby wait times will jump from 20 or 30 minutes to 60 or 90 in just a matter of minutes and it is because a boat load of people with FP+'s all showed up at one time. When this happens, they just funnel them through and the standby line literally STANDS BY!

You end up finding yourself second guessing your attack plan and trying to adjust. So one of two things happens, you either stick with your plan but get behind schedule or you adjust and move to a different section of the park with lower wait times. Either way, the end result is you are rarely near your upcoming FP when it is time to use it and you end up crossing back and forth across the park. This brings up another new problem, the standby wait times might be 15 to 20 minutes on a multitude of rides but there are people everywhere. Some almost running trying to get to a FP, some standing scratching their heads as usual looking at the park map, some walking but looking at the app on their phone constantly and not paying attention to where they are going and running into everyone or cutting them off, etc. One completely unintended result of FP+ has turned out to be very poor traffic/crowd control......people are just running everywhere and it makes the park seem far busier and more difficult to navigate.

I think we're at a state where we go for the "Disney experience." Yes, we like to ride the new rides and see the updates, but beyond that there's never anything we're looking to accomplish besides enjoying our time at WDW. We usually make one ADR per day to make sure we get "a good meal." And while we do book fastpasses, we don't sweat the small stuff if we miss them due to being in other parks or other places within the park. But then again we've tended to go during "slower times" when the crowds weren't as heavy. With the kids getting older we really enjoy the flexibility.

1DisneyNut;2474952 wrote: That is exactly what I attempted to do but I ran into problems with that plan. The biggest problem I had was trying to get the popular rides at the times I needed them. I wasn't even able to get one for 7 D mine train. The others that I did get, it was hard to coordinate them with estimated times. The next problem was the crowd flow is so weird now because of FP+. People with little experience get them for attractions that shouldn't need them and they show up in batches typically when the parades or shows end. So you will be going through your normal order trying to tick rides off the list and out of the blue the standby wait times will jump from 20 or 30 minutes to 60 or 90 in just a matter of minutes and it is because a boat load of people with FP+'s all showed up at one time. When this happens, they just funnel them through and the standby line literally STANDS BY!

Reading this does remind me that we did run into the problem of crazy wait times a few times. We were luckily able to get all of our FPs at the times we wanted (late Aug. trip this year). But, we were stunned by the wait times on a few rides we didn't have FPs for. We had at least two days in each park though, and FPs for all the must dos, so we were fortunately able to hit those rides later in the trip.

We also experienced being in the standby line when it was COMPLETELY shut down once to funnel all the FP people through. They should have stuck to the plan of alternating the lines. We were in the standby for Space Mtn. and after the line was stopped for nearly an hour with the FP line breezing through, a couple people made a big stink and they started alternating again.

Thankfully we didn't encounter any weird crowd flow!

I totally agree with poster on this. We went in September, a time which used to be a slower period. For more than a year before, I began watching wait times to gauge which park to be in on which day. At 180-day mark, I made ADRs; at 60-day mark, I made FPs.

Crowds were heavy in every park we visited, but we were locked into those parks for those days. Halfway through trip, wife wanted to change our plans and go the Animal Kingdom in morning, ride a few rides, and head to Epcot for rest of day to spend time at Food & Wine Festival. I had precious FPs reserved at Magic Kingdom (7DMT among others.) It was Wednesday when we tried changing our Friday planning, but when I wanted to add AK FPs that close in, there was limited availability. Earliest FP for Kilimanjaro Safari was at 3:50. (So much for getting to Epcot early.) Too late to keep old FPs for Magic Kingdom; they were already canceled. Now, we were stuck to spending most of day in AK.

It has become too complicated for me to plan a Disney trip to enjoy it anymore.

I have been able to adjust the way we visit the parks and take advantage of FP+. I don't like planning so far in advance, but I do like be able to have a FP+ reserved for TSM and some of the other popular rides for whatever time we select, and not have to be there at Rope Drop to get one. In general, with a few exceptions for a few uber popular rides, I have been able to make changes with my FP+ selections as late as the morning of, right before the park opens.

To me, the biggest issue is ADR. It seems out of control.

MrPeetrie;2475001 wrote:
It has become too complicated for me to plan a Disney trip to enjoy it anymore.

This is a great point. Although, for me the complication is not how to do it, but more all of the data you have to collect and guess work just to make the plans that you will be locked into. While planning for a Disney vacation used to be fun and exciting, it has become a major chore. Before, I would have a general idea of what parks we wanted to go to so that we could match up some of our favorite ADRs. Now, you are more or less locked into the parks you pick (if you want to go on the top FP+ rides without waiting in line for an hour or so).

I believe the dining plan greatly reduced my level of enjoyment from the restaurants (making them more generic and often hard to schedule) and the FP+ is doing the same for the enjoyment of the rides. We go every year in January, but not this year. The sad thing is that my sadness over not going is greatly reduced by the happiness of knowing that I do not have to plan everything out. There are some other factors here that are contributing to our decision not to go, but the fact is that we would probably still be going under the old FP system, where we could come in and have some degree of relaxation and spontaneity. Now we feel like we would be paying too much for parks that have less to offer (currently), while having to pull kids out of school to go to a somewhat stressful (or at least highly regimented) vacation.

We hated it!! It seems like all we did was run around and missed so much. We only had 1 ADR and were late for that, so we had to wait for a table and that took more park time.

For me, the only monster shortcoming of FP+ is the terrible IT behind it all. Disney IT has become complacent with having unstable, flaky, and sometimes even demon-possessed computer systems at all levels of IT, from ADRs, rooms, tickets, FP+, both public and internal computer systems are just a mess. Disney IT has a culture which accepts downtime, appears to have no problem with an "upgrade" creating catastrophic downtime for guests currently on their vacation, and based on my own recent calls to MDE tech support, are now becoming annoyed with anyone who does not accept "give it some time and it will work out" as a solution to the problem I have called about (and waited 45 minutes on hold to boot).

As for the "planning stress" of FP+, I just do not understand why people get so upset about it. Ever since 1971 most families have been trying to "get it all in" and "beat the crowds" at Disney. FP v1 gave us the ability to take some of the pressure off of getting that must-do ride by giving us a time within an hour or two, but we had to stress about physically walking over to the FP machine to get that ticket, and we could only get one "guarantee" before we had to repeat the cycle again.

FP v2 now gives us the ability to lock in THREE must dos, and we get to stress about it 60 days before our vacation instead of stressing about while we are in the parks crisscrossing from one FP machine to the next all day long. No matter how you shake it, MOST families spending time at an amusement park are going to experience some stress trying to get things accomplished, and all FP+ has done is shift a little bit of that stress 60 days earlier than it was in the past.

Looking back at the OP talk about sitting in their room and pondering switching parks, back in the "old days" we had no idea how wait times were because there was no such thing as MDE and FP+ feeding us that information 24/7 onto our mobile phones. If you wanted to change your plans based on attendance, you couldn't make that decision until you were inside the overcrowded park, and then you never knew if the park you hopped to was going to be even worse. Further, if you did leave DHS in favor of MK mid-day, you probably weren't getting a paper FP for many of the E-ticket rides, but of course you wouldn't know that until you had trekked all the way to that attraction's FP distribution machine to see that they were covered up with bags!

I find that there is plenty of opportunity to be spontaneous at Disney, but you have to pick your poison. If you want to have a relaxing day at the parks (or sleep in), then you can't expect to get a lot of things done that day. That's no different than in the past, if you were willing to crisscross the park all day chasing paper FPs, you could get an awful lot done, but it would be a marathon not a leisurely stroll kind of day. I don't see much difference between now and then, except now you get to have your first 3 FPs in hand before you even roll out of the bed. Plus, if you miss the nostalgia of crisscrossing the park chasing more FPs, you still get to do that too by having to go to a kiosk to get a 4th or 5th FP+ reservation! The fact the Standby lines appear to have got longer recently is, IMHO, not a function of FP+ as much as it is that there are just way more people squeezing into the parks, and nothing Corporate does (read price increa$es) seems to do stem the flow up people coming into the parks.

I have found that once I put my phone down and stop trying to maximize my FP+ reservations (or my park choice) by trading things like a broker on Wall Street that I enjoyed my time much better. Sure, there were times I walked in the FP+ line for an attraction with a 10 minute Standby time, but I just took my licks and kept on going without tinkering with things unless I absolutely had to (which for my family, usually involved trips to the ER or Urgent Care!).

Just my :twocents:

Goofy4TheWorld;2475023 wrote:
As for the "planning stress" of FP+, I just do not understand why people get so upset about it. Ever since 1971 most families have been trying to "get it all in" and "beat the crowds" at Disney. FP v1 gave us the ability to take some of the pressure off of getting that must-do ride by giving us a time within an hour or two, but we had to stress about physically walking over to the FP machine to get that ticket, and we could only get one "guarantee" before we had to repeat the cycle again.

FP v2 now gives us the ability to lock in THREE must dos, and we get to stress about it 60 days before our vacation instead of stressing about while we are in the parks crisscrossing from one FP machine to the next all day long. No matter how you shake it, MOST families spending time at an amusement park are going to experience some stress trying to get things accomplished, and all FP+ has done is shift a little bit of that stress 60 days earlier than it was in the past.

Wow, I really disagree with this and I don't really know where to start. To me there is a fundamental difference in having someone from your party grab a fast pass for a ride you want to go on at whatever park you choose to go to that day and being tied to a specific park on a given day. When we would go, there were very few rides that required FP and that you couldn't get a FP for later in the day. And, really THREE must dos? For the most part, especially in the parks that are not MK, you can use FP+ for one ride that you would have needed an old FP for and then 2 others that never would have required a FP in the first place. It has been my experience that the standby lines for rides since FP+ are considerably longer, and this seems to have been documented with data on other sites. For example, the thought that you would need a FP for Nemo/Living Seas is amazing to me. This was almost always a walk on attraction when we go (again in a not so busy time of the year). Now, you have to wait until you have passed the time for all FP+, two of which you traditionally would not have needed, to get another. By that time, they are all out of the major attractions. I don't see how that is less stressful or having the stress removed 60 days ago.

The only advantage I see to the FP+ system is that on a busy day, you can guarantee (without a hour plus wait) yourself a ride at the major attraction for the park you are at that day. And, that is about it. The other 2 FP+ were not required previously and by the time you finish the major ride, you are done getting any meaningful FP for the rest of the day. And, this had to have been scheduled months prior. We tried for a somewhat spontaneous trip, finalized 3 weeks or so before we left, and we could not get Mine Train FP+ ever because they were all sold out.

I long for the days when you could pick the park you wanted that day, or change your mind about what park you were going to (not having to stick to a plan you made 2 months prior) and ride rides. I never had a problem crossing a park for my family to get FPs. It may be different for some, but for us, we end up on far fewer rides with the FP+ system than we ever did with FP or before even that.

I think the system is perfect for people that like to stick to a rigid schedule, want to show up in the parks late morning or around lunch time to ride 3 rides (maybe one or two more), and then go back to the resort. But if you are active and enjoy getting to the parks early and riding a lot of rides, park hopping, etc... I cannot see how this is better.

Regardless of others' opinions on FP+, I can state that personally it has reduced my level of enjoyment in the parks and has actually been a major factor for us not going this year. I also realize that we go in a less crowded time of the year and our opinions may be different if we were there for peak times - however, there is a reason we go during the less busy times.

Park Hopper;2475028 wrote: Wow, I really disagree with this and I don't really know where to start. To me there is a fundamental difference in having someone from your party grab a fast pass for a ride you want to go on at whatever park you choose to go to that day and being tied to a specific park on a given day. When we would go, there were very few rides that required FP and that you couldn't get a FP for later in the day. And, really THREE must dos? For the most part, especially in the parks that are not MK, you can use FP+ for one ride that you would have needed an old FP for and then 2 others that never would have required a FP in the first place. It has been my experience that the standby lines for rides since FP+ are considerably longer, and this seems to have been documented with data on other sites. For example, the thought that you would need a FP for Nemo/Living Seas is amazing to me. This was almost always a walk on attraction when we go (again in a not so busy time of the year). Now, you have to wait until you have passed the time for all FP+, two of which you traditionally would not have needed, to get another. By that time, they are all out of the major attractions. I don't see how that is less stressful or having the stress removed 60 days ago.

The only advantage I see to the FP+ system is that on a busy day, you can guarantee (without a hour plus wait) yourself a ride at the major attraction for the park you are at that day. And, that is about it. The other 2 FP+ were not required previously and by the time you finish the major ride, you are done getting any meaningful FP for the rest of the day. And, this had to have been scheduled months prior. We tried for a somewhat spontaneous trip, finalized 3 weeks or so before we left, and we could not get Mine Train FP+ ever because they were all sold out.

I long for the days when you could pick the park you wanted that day, or change your mind about what park you were going to (not having to stick to a plan you made 2 months prior) and ride rides. I never had a problem crossing a park for my family to get FPs. It may be different for some, but for us, we end up on far fewer rides with the FP+ system than we ever did with FP or before even that.

I think the system is perfect for people that like to stick to a rigid schedule, want to show up in the parks late morning or around lunch time to ride 3 rides (maybe one or two more), and then go back to the resort. But if you are active and enjoy getting to the parks early and riding a lot of rides, park hopping, etc... I cannot see how this is better.

Regardless of others' opinions on FP+, I can state that personally it has reduced my level of enjoyment in the parks and has actually been a major factor for us not going this year. I also realize that we go in a less crowded time of the year and our opinions may be different if we were there for peak times - however, there is a reason we go during the less busy times.

My thoughts exactly.

I will add that we found ourselves crossing the park far far more running around to FP+ times than we ever did with the old paper FP system. As has been mentioned by many, you rarely needed a FP for more than one, maybe two attractions in each park prior to FP+. However, now with FP+, the wait times are substantial for rides that rarely ever had more than 15 minutes in the past. It is a direct result of the new system giving FP+ for these rides, especially when the major attractions are out of FP+. People that have these show up in batches and the CM's completely stop the standby line and feed the FP+ line in which causes large wait times that take quite a while to work themselves back out. By the time the standby line normalizes, another parade or show or whatever ends and here comes another batch of FP+ to the rides and back the standby up again.

Another point I will make is the stress isn't just at the 60 day mark, it doesn't end there. To us, it is worse during the actual trip because you get to the park you set up 2 months ago, it is busy, the crowd flow is weird or there is weather that affects your day, there is a show or parade at a particular time you didn't know about or now decided you want to see and guess what......you have a conflict with a FP+ you scheduled 2 months ago. So here you are in the park, on what is supposed to be a vacation with your face in your phone trying to adjust your schedule to fit what you now want to do. For me, that is just like being at work. I run a business and have to make appointments, schedule, work out issues all day long every day and that is the last thing I want to do on vacation.

We used to go 2 and 3 times a year but when FP+ went into place we stopped going and just now went on our first trip with it in place. It was every bit of annoying as I was afraid it would be and more.

Now that I have used FP+, I can tell you who benefits most from it and probably loves it and that would be slackers. The guy that shows up 15 minutes late for everything, drags around about getting to his appointments and getting work done. It is perfect for them because they can drag around in the morning and show up at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon, hit their 3 FP+'s and maybe a show or one other ride and then go to their dining ADR they made 6 months ago, eat and then call it a day. lol

1DisneyNut;2475046 wrote:
However, now with FP+, the wait times are substantial for rides that rarely ever had more than 15 minutes in the past. It is a direct result of the new system giving FP+ for these rides, especially when the major attractions are out of FP+.

From what I had read and experienced, the lines are long no matter what you do. The E-ticket Standby lines are longer than ever, the FP+ entry lines are longer than the old paper FP lines, the ABCD-ticket attraction's Standby lines are longer, the bus lines, the food lines, the park exit, it's all a mess. Unless Disney had reduced the throughput of all of the attractions, the total number of people riding the "big rides" hasn't changed because of FP+, it's just that there are more people in the park than in the past.

If FP+ made Haunted Mansion lines get longer, what was the offset attraction who's line went down?

Goofy4TheWorld;2475055 wrote: From what I had read and experienced, the lines are long no matter what you do. The E-ticket Standby lines are longer than ever, the FP+ entry lines are longer than the old paper FP lines, the ABCD-ticket attraction's Standby lines are longer, the bus lines, the food lines, the park exit, it's all a mess. Unless Disney had reduced the throughput of all of the attractions, the total number of people riding the "big rides" hasn't changed because of FP+, it's just that there are more people in the park than in the past.

This is the real problem. The more crowded the world gets, the less spontaneity one can have; more people means everybody has to wait more, regardless of the FP/advance pass system in use. The attractions can still only have the same number of riders per hour. It's simple math. If the crowds were sparse enough, you'd never have to wait in any line, and never need a dinner reservation, and eventually the parks would close for lack of business. But it seems that the theme park business is more popular than ever. Our choice is to either get in line, or go somewhere else on vacation. If enough people do that, the crowds will be reduced and the parks will be more manageable. I'm not counting on that happening.

Goofy4TheWorld;2475023 wrote: For me, the only monster shortcoming of FP+ is the terrible IT behind it all. Disney IT has become complacent with having unstable, flaky, and sometimes even demon-possessed computer systems at all levels of IT, from ADRs, rooms, tickets, FP+, both public and internal computer systems are just a mess. Disney IT has a culture which accepts downtime, appears to have no problem with an "upgrade" creating catastrophic downtime for guests currently on their vacation, and based on my own recent calls to MDE tech support, are now becoming annoyed with anyone who does not accept "give it some time and it will work out" as a solution to the problem I have called about (and waited 45 minutes on hold to boot).

As for the "planning stress" of FP+, I just do not understand why people get so upset about it. Ever since 1971 most families have been trying to "get it all in" and "beat the crowds" at Disney. FP v1 gave us the ability to take some of the pressure off of getting that must-do ride by giving us a time within an hour or two, but we had to stress about physically walking over to the FP machine to get that ticket, and we could only get one "guarantee" before we had to repeat the cycle again.

FP v2 now gives us the ability to lock in THREE must dos, and we get to stress about it 60 days before our vacation instead of stressing about while we are in the parks crisscrossing from one FP machine to the next all day long. No matter how you shake it, MOST families spending time at an amusement park are going to experience some stress trying to get things accomplished, and all FP+ has done is shift a little bit of that stress 60 days earlier than it was in the past.

Have to agree with all that you've said. First of all, the fact that Disney, of all companies, settles for shoddy IT mystifies me. There's no excuse for it. They certainly have the money to fix it.

I also agree with the FP vs. FP+ shifting the stress. I do like that with FP+, we walk in knowing we're going to get on rides like TSM or 7DMT. In fact, we'd never been on TSM before FP+ because we weren't willing to do the wait time. And, you're right, going into the parks and relying on the old FP system didn't net any guarantees either.

As for rides that you wouldn't typically need a FP for now being on the FP+ system, I wonder if most of us who think this is silly are traditionally going at slower times? I've seen the massive line capacity some of these rides have that are typically walk ons when we go. Perhaps this system is making a huge difference to those who can only go during the busiest times.

1DisneyNut;2475046 wrote:

Now that I have used FP+, I can tell you who benefits most from it and probably loves it and that would be slackers. The guy that shows up 15 minutes late for everything, drags around about getting to his appointments and getting work done. It is perfect for them because they can drag around in the morning and show up at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon, hit their 3 FP+'s and maybe a show or one other ride and then go to their dining ADR they made 6 months ago, eat and then call it a day. lol

You are hilarious! This actually made me giggle out loud. My goodness! If someone likes a relaxed vacation where they sleep in once in awhile then they must be total life slackers? Doesn't that contradict the argument that this whole system is causing too much stress?

I have used fast pass + twice now and must say I loved it the first time and hated the second time. It was a trip killer IMHO. First day second trip, I used three fastpasses at Epcot hopped to AK and wanted a fast pass to Mickey meet and greet. I Was told that was a no go "cant do that". MY DD was working with Mickey at that time and I was trying to surprise visit her. Could not do it. There was no line for Mickey but I could not use the Fastpass line (since there is just one mickey) So DD was hanging with mickey alone in a room and no way for me to surprise her since no fastpass could be made. Waste of time for the visitor and for the workers.
The rest of the trip all the Fastpasses for any of the must do rides were gone for the week. No I did not make FP+ 30 or 60 days out. I did not know I was going. I am going back during the dreaded Christmas week to see my DD and I do not plan to go to the parks. My plan right now is to resort hop, see the sights, rent a boat, visit the horses at the ranch, and eat.
There are way more people in the parks, way more.Not a busy week by any means in the past. The flow is wonky and rides broke down constatnly. While in line; nemo, pirates, haunted mansion, thunder mountian, pirates again, and space mountain all went down. :(

TheVBs;2475073 wrote: Have to agree with all that you've said. First of all, the fact that Disney, of all companies, settles for shoddy IT mystifies me. There's no excuse for it. They certainly have the money to fix it.

I also agree with the FP vs. FP+ shifting the stress. I do like that with FP+, we walk in knowing we're going to get on rides like TSM or 7DMT. In fact, we'd never been on TSM before FP+ because we weren't willing to do the wait time. And, you're right, going into the parks and relying on the old FP system didn't net any guarantees either.

As for rides that you wouldn't typically need a FP for now being on the FP+ system, I wonder if most of us who think this is silly are traditionally going at slower times? I've seen the massive line capacity some of these rides have that are typically walk ons when we go. Perhaps this system is making a huge difference to those who can only go during the busiest times.

You are hilarious! This actually made me giggle out loud. My goodness! If someone likes a relaxed vacation where they sleep in once in awhile then they must be total life slackers? Doesn't that contradict the argument that this whole system is causing too much stress?

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. One of the groups that I would think love FP+ would be slackers/late to the party type people. It puts them on an even playing field as far as FP goes. It takes the old saying of "the early bird gets the worm" and throws it out the window.

They still won't get as much done because they miss so much park time but those type people are the ones that always complained because all the good paper FP's were gone by the time they got to the park at 2 in the afternoon. That is the reason I think that group probably loves FP+.

My argument is all the planning and adjusting is stressful. I can't comprehend how not getting to "sleep in" could be stressful although I guess for some people maybe it is but for me it is right the opposite; if I am not up and getting after it in the morning, my stress level goes through the roof.

Goofy4TheWorld;2475055 wrote: From what I had read and experienced, the lines are long no matter what you do. The E-ticket Standby lines are longer than ever, the FP+ entry lines are longer than the old paper FP lines, the ABCD-ticket attraction's Standby lines are longer, the bus lines, the food lines, the park exit, it's all a mess. Unless Disney had reduced the throughput of all of the attractions, the total number of people riding the "big rides" hasn't changed because of FP+, it's just that there are more people in the park than in the past.

If FP+ made Haunted Mansion lines get longer, what was the offset attraction who's line went down?

You used to be able to get to the park early and blow through rides like crazy until around noon or a little after without even using FP but now since they do FP+, a lot and I mean a lot of people schedule them for first thing in the morning and that causes standby lines to be long right out of the gate. You can't just show up early and blow through all the popular rides in the standby lines like you used to and then later all those that had early FP+ are in the standby lines making them even longer. That is how it has made standby lines longer throughout the day although throughput is still the same.

The week we were there was busy for this time of year but wasn't even in the ball park as busy as the 4th of July weeks we have been in the past so I can tell you by comparison that FP+ has obviously affected the wait times.

After being there for a week fighting the system, I finally figured out how to work the system in my favor but I couldn't adjust all of my FP+'s to work to my advantage because of lack of availability for the times I would have needed. When we go back, I will most likely be able to outmaneuver the majority of the crowds but it is going to require an entirely different attack plan than what I used to use prior to FP+. The traffic flow, standby lines and FP system is just totally different than it used to be and is really weird if you have been to WDW a lot and knew how to work the old system.