Disney tells salaried and non-union employees in the U.S. they must be vaccinated

azcavalier;2532255 wrote: I honestly don't know what that means.

It is an attempted political insult on a forum and topic about Disney mandating safe and effective vaccines for all Disney employees. It adds no substance to the debate / discussion and more than likely has no basis in fact but it does allow the reader to gauge the posters level of maturity.

PS - And I sound like a broken record....please get the vaccine as soon as possible to help end this pandemic.

goofyskier;2532256 wrote: It is an attempted political insult on a forum and topic about Disney mandating safe and effective vaccines for all Disney employees. It adds no substance to the debate / discussion and more than likely has no basis in fact but it does allow the reader to gauge the posters level of maturity.

PS - And I sound like a broken record....please get the vaccine as soon as possible to help end this pandemic.

Huh. Well, there was nothing political in my post, so not sure why political insults are being issued. And there is nothing political about the scientific method. Nothing partisan one way or the other. I don't care who you voted for nor what your political beliefs are. Regardless of who our President is, the following is true.

The scientific method works.

There is no ulterior motive nor government plot behind the vaccine.

The hospitals in the south are definitely in crisis.

We could literally be back to normal...NORMAL...in 8 weeks, if everyone who was eligible and able took the vaccine. That's it. It's that simple. Science proves this, and history proves this.

Walt Disney World is 100% within its rights as a corporate entity to enforce a vaccine mandate. It's the responsible thing to do, especially with how many people come from all over the world, interact with employees, and then go back to whence they came.

2002 - 2022: 20+ visits (POR, BW, All Stars, VWL, CSR, BLT, BC, SSR, CB, Dolphin, OKW, Poly, offsite x8)
DL - 1996, 2019
Next up - January 2023 short trip! We just want to try that 50th Anniversary chocolate monstrosity at Mexico!

 

azcavalier;2532257 wrote: Huh. Well, there was nothing political in my post, so not sure why political insults are being issued. And there is nothing political about the scientific method. Nothing partisan one way or the other. I don't care who you voted for nor what your political beliefs are. Regardless of who our President is, the following is true.

The scientific method works.

There is no ulterior motive nor government plot behind the vaccine.

The hospitals in the south are definitely in crisis.

We could literally be back to normal...NORMAL...in 8 weeks, if everyone who was eligible and able took the vaccine. That's it. It's that simple. Science proves this, and history proves this.

Walt Disney World is 100% within its rights as a corporate entity to enforce a vaccine mandate. It's the responsible thing to do, especially with how many people come from all over the world, interact with employees, and then go back to whence they came.

100 percent agree. That makes two of us lol

azcavalier;2532257 wrote: Huh. Well, there was nothing political in my post, so not sure why political insults are being issued. And there is nothing political about the scientific method. Nothing partisan one way or the other. I don't care who you voted for nor what your political beliefs are. Regardless of who our President is, the following is true.

The scientific method works.

There is no ulterior motive nor government plot behind the vaccine.

The hospitals in the south are definitely in crisis.

We could literally be back to normal...NORMAL...in 8 weeks, if everyone who was eligible and able took the vaccine. That's it. It's that simple. Science proves this, and history proves this.

Walt Disney World is 100% within its rights as a corporate entity to enforce a vaccine mandate. It's the responsible thing to do, especially with how many people come from all over the world, interact with employees, and then go back to whence they came.

Actually, the "scientific method" can be manipulated to say what you want it to say. I don't intend to get into a big debate about it, but anyone who is truly interested should take a statistics class to see how they do things to manipulate the outcome.
As an example, I will use hydroxychloroquine, because most people have heard of it. A quick A&P lesson here to help people understand it a little better if they are interested. Viruses cannot replicate on their own. They have to enter a host cell and use some of that cell's processes to reproduce.
The way hydroxychloroquine works is by making conditions within the cell inhospitable for virus reproduction. With that basic understanding, I will show you how a scientific study can be manipulated to produce the outcome you want. (These are examples of actually scientific studies that were completed) In each case, the question asked and the way data is manipulated affects the outcome.
Case #1 - we do not want hydroxychloroquine to be shown as effective. Question asked "does using hydroxychloroquine minimize symptoms or prevent death?" This study is performed on patients who are already in ICU in the hospital. The problem with this study is that the patient's body is past the point of where hydroxychloroquine would be most effective. The virus has already entered the patient's cells and reproduced to the point that it has overwhelmed the patient's own immune system.
Case #2 - we want hydroxychloroquine to be shown as effective. This study is performed on patients who present to an outpatient clinic with mild symptoms of covid, and the medication is prescribed prior to test results. The problem with this study is that the patients may have never needed the medication in the first place. The only question for efficacy is "was the patient hospitalized or did they die?" They may not have covid and their immune systems may have beaten the virus without any medications in the first place.
If you want to rely solely on science, there are scientific studies out there that show the vaccine is not as safe as it is purported to be.
We would not be back to "normal" if everyone took the vaccine, because the vaccine is not keeping people from getting covid and not keeping them from dying from it.
The whole situation is more complicated than most people understand.

First, thank you for the discussion, and not an argument. If it we can keep it civil and show respect for one another, I would be grateful. Insults and contempt for those who disagree is the problem with this country, not differing opinions.

Cinderelley;2532267 wrote: Actually, the "scientific method" can be manipulated to say what you want it to say. I don't intend to get into a big debate about it, but anyone who is truly interested should take a statistics class to see how they do things to manipulate the outcome.

The scientific method and statistics are two completely different things. The scientific method is:

1. Make an observation.
2. Ask a question.
3. Form a hypothesis, or testable explanation.
4. Make a prediction based on the hypothesis.
5. Test the prediction.
6. Iterate: use the results to make new hypotheses or predictions.

This absolutely works. It is a process, not a result. Statistics can be manipulated to tell any story you want. Such as when you say:

Cinderelley;2532267 wrote: We would not be back to "normal" if everyone took the vaccine, because the vaccine is not keeping people from getting covid and not keeping them from dying from it.

Yes, vaccinated people can still get, spread, and die from COVID. But the odds of that happening are reduced to such a small number that it cannot be denied that the vaccines work. 95% of the hospitalized COVID patients here in Southwestern VA are unvaccinated. And those that are vaccinated and still hospitalized have other complicating factors, such as age or immunocompromised conditions.

I mean, over 375 million people in the US are vaccinated. Let's say that even 1 million of them get COVID. That equals 0.002%. 1 million people is a LOT of people. And so, the media pushes headlines like, "1 million vaccinated people got COVID!" it sounds terrible. What it should be pushing is, "If you're vaccinated your chances of getting COVID are 1 in 375,000, or .002%." But that is not sensationalistic enough.

Again, as I stated in a previous post, NO VACCINE is 100% effective because all humans are not 100% identical. But the fact that the mRNA vaccines are more than 90% effective is a miracle. A God blessed miracle.

There is a FANTASTIC book about statistics and how news organizations and companies use statistics to tell the story they want to tell, if anyone is interested. It is:

A Field Guide to Lies and Statistics: A Neuroscientist on How to Make Sense of a Complex World by Daniel Levitin.

It was a fascinating read, and I highly recommend it.

azcavalier;2532257 wrote: Huh. Well, there was nothing political in my post, so not sure why political insults are being issued. And there is nothing political about the scientific method. Nothing partisan one way or the other. I don't care who you voted for nor what your political beliefs are. Regardless of who our President is, the following is true.

The scientific method works.

The hospitals in the south are definitely in crisis.

We could literally be back to normal...NORMAL...in 8 weeks, if everyone who was eligible and able took the vaccine. That's it. It's that simple. Science proves this, and history proves this.

I have a couple of comments but do not want this to turn into a huge debate.

First on the "scientific method" that keeps being mentioned. The correct scientific method is to do full FDA studies and trials on volunteers not rush a new vaccine produced under new technological methods out to the public and hope for the best while telling them it is "safe and effective." Sure so far they appear to be safe enough and fairly effective but the reality of the situation is they really did not know because they did not study them long enough through the stages. It has turned out that they are less effective than first thought and those vaccinated are still spreading the virus to both those who are unvaccinated as well as others who have been vaccinated.

Secondly, I live in the Southeast. Alabama to be exact which is the state they love to mention. Our hospitals are not really in crisis. What we have is basically two problems that are a product of our system and it has shown up in states all across the country. We allow people to use the emergency rooms as their personal doctor. They clog the emergency room with non-emergencies. Since the media has the masses that will listen scared out of their wits about Covid 19, if they feel a little ill, they go to the emergency room. The other thing is if they test postive for Covid 19 at the emergency room and there are beds available and the patient has insurance, they put them in a room and start ringing the insurance cash register whereas most should be sent home and told to return if they start having more serious symptoms.

The craziest thing about all of this is Covid 19 is 98 to 99% survivable without a vaccine. We originally had it in the very beginning at the end of May beginning of June 2020. Since then we have had mild symptoms after being exposed twice that we know of for sure but have most likely been exposed multiple times because we never changed anything in our life. We actually went on far more vacations and long weekend getaways over the past year and a half because hotels and travel were so cheap. There we only two weekends during all of it we did not eat inside a restaurant. The last time we caught Covid that we know for sure was on our summer vacation and we are pretty certain we caught it at Disneyland on the 4th of July (and for those picking on the South, please note Disneyland is in Anaheim, California that was packed with locals. LOL) Regardless of whether it was Disneyland or not, it was definitely in Southern California that we caught the Delta variant. We were tested for antibodies recently and had a high level. Most of the people I personally know have already had Covid 19. Some last year but a lot caught it early this year and some have been sprinkled through the summer. I know some that have been vaccinated but not a lot. Our infection rate spiked and has now plummeted in Alabama but yet we have done basically nothing but keep moving on with life.

My point in telling all of you that is this: If this is what we consider a pandemic and it really caused a crisis in our healthcare system as the media wants everyone to believe, we are in serious and I mean serious trouble as a society if a real deal, highly infections, disease with an actual high mortality rate ever comes along. If our healthcare system can't handle a virus with a 1 to 2% mortality rate, what in the world are we going to do if one comes along like previous pandemics with a potential of 10, 15 or 20% mortality without quick and responsive healthcare? That is a scary thought if you buy into this narrative that our healthcare system has been in crisis due to Covid 19.

Thanks for the posts Cinderelley and 1DisneyNut! Even though we come here to talk about a make believe world, it's nice to see that some people still believe in science. Unlike others who don't understand that life begins at conception and also think we have 63 genders. SMH!

1DisneyNut;2532270 wrote: I have a couple of comments but do not want this to turn into a huge debate.

First on the "scientific method" that keeps being mentioned. The correct scientific method is to do full FDA studies and trials on volunteers not rush a new vaccine produced under new technological methods out to the public and hope for the best while telling them it is "safe and effective." Sure so far they appear to be safe enough and fairly effective but the reality of the situation is they really did not know because they did not study them long enough through the stages. It has turned out that they are less effective than first thought and those vaccinated are still spreading the virus to both those who are unvaccinated as well as others who have been vaccinated.

A couple of points:

The mRNA vaccine method, in general, has been experimented with for almost 20 years, when the first SARS virus started spreading in China. They tried to produce an mRNA vaccine for AIDS (as Cinderelly mentioned, I believe), but it did not work. All viruses are not the same. But they knew enough about the technology that when COVID hit us (SARS-2), the lightbulb popped up and they produced two really effective vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna).

I agree that it would have been nice to have had more time to study these vaccines over time, absolutely. But the cool thing about the mRNA vaccines is that they contain no live COVID virus in them, unlike other traditional vaccines. They are a bunch of proteins and sugar and stuff that basically trick the body into making the correct antibodies and then once the vaccine has done it's job it basically is either destroyed or passed through the body's systems to where there is nothing left but the anti-bodies. It's super cool, actually.

So, experimental? Yes. But also not new. It just turned out that COVID was the perfect problem for the solution that they've been experimenting with for about 20 years.

1DisneyNut;2532270 wrote: What we have is basically two problems that are a product of our system and it has shown up in states all across the country. We allow people to use the emergency rooms as their personal doctor. They clog the emergency room with non-emergencies.

Amen.

1DisneyNut;2532270 wrote: The other thing is if they test postive for Covid 19 at the emergency room and there are beds available and the patient has insurance, they put them in a room and start ringing the insurance cash register whereas most should be sent home and told to return if they start having more serious symptoms.

I can't speak to that. Here in Virginia, that is not the case. If there is a bed, and you need a bed, you get a bed. The problem is that there are no beds. Now, the real reason for THIS is because our medical systems operate just below capacity. They don't have a bunch of empty rooms and nurses sitting around with no patients. So when something like this hits, they are already pretty much at capacity, and this can overwhelm them in a snap. Our local hospital has an entire floor that is closed, because they don't normally have the patients to fill them. They would NOW, but they don't have the nursing staff to take care of them, and there aren't exactly nurses sitting around with no jobs, just waiting for a hospital that suddenly needs their services.

The way our health care systems run is a whole 'nuther discussion entirely.

1DisneyNut;2532270 wrote: The craziest thing about all of this is Covid 19 is 98 to 99% survivable without a vaccine. We originally had it in the very beginning at the end of May beginning of June 2020. Since then we have had mild symptoms after being exposed twice that we know of for sure but have most likely been exposed multiple times because we never changed anything in our life. We actually went on far more vacations and long weekend getaways over the past year and a half because hotels and travel were so cheap. There we only two weekends during all of it we did not eat inside a restaurant. The last time we caught Covid that we know for sure was on our summer vacation and we are pretty certain we caught it at Disneyland on the 4th of July (and for those picking on the South, please note Disneyland is in Anaheim, California that was packed with locals. LOL) Regardless of whether it was Disneyland or not, it was definitely in Southern California that we caught the Delta variant. We were tested for antibodies recently and had a high level. Most of the people I personally know have already had Covid 19. Some last year but a lot caught it early this year and some have been sprinkled through the summer. I know some that have been vaccinated but not a lot. Our infection rate spiked and has now plummeted in Alabama but yet we have done basically nothing but keep moving on with life.

Agreed that for most people, this has been the case. We have had family and friends catch it, and for most it was just about staying home for a week or two. A couple wound up in the hospital. One in the ICU, and we almost lost her, but she made it through. For our family, it's actually been a great time, as my kids were spread to Idaho and Texas, and came home. We never thought we'd have them all home again, and we had them together again for 18 blessed months. It was awesome. But I also know that has not been the case for a lot of others.

Yes, it only has a 1% mortality rate. What is missing in that argument is what that 1% represents. What makes COVID different is how contagious it is. You stated that you seemed to get it more than once, which is disturbing in and of itself. Your body should have produced antibodies. So, you got two different variants of it. In less than 18 months. So, knowing the mortality rate and how contagious it is, if everyone in the U.S. contracted it, that means it would kill 3.3 million people. That's a lot of Americans. Heck, if only half of the people in the country got it, it would kill 1.6 million people. That is still A LOT.

The reason we should vaccinate against it is to give the virus less of a chance to spread, and less of chance to mutate into something worse so that you don't catch it a third time, maybe with worse results.

1DisneyNut;2532270 wrote: My point in telling all of you that is this: If this is what we consider a pandemic and it really caused a crisis in our healthcare system as the media wants everyone to believe, we are in serious and I mean serious trouble as a society if a real deal, highly infections, disease with an actual high mortality rate ever comes along. If our healthcare system can't handle a virus with a 1 to 2% mortality rate, what in the world are we going to do if one comes along like previous pandemics with a potential of 10, 15 or 20% mortality without quick and responsive healthcare? That is a scary thought if you buy into this narrative that our healthcare system has been in crisis due to Covid 19.

I do buy in to the narrative because I have a wife who is in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure she's not lying to me about what she sees and experiences at the hospital. And, yeah, if something worse comes along, the way they currently run healthcare in the U.S., it'll collapse pretty fast.

baldburke;2532271 wrote: Even though we come here to talk about a make believe world, it's nice to see that some people still believe in science. Unlike others who don't understand that life begins at conception and also think we have 63 genders. SMH!

I think you assume i'm pretty liberal/left-leaning. This is not the case. I'm a rural farm boy, gun-toting Christian, son of a WWII Marine vet father and Air Force Captain mother who has been Republican voting my entire life. But I have also been involved in medicine for the last 20 years through my wife and my own employment. I'll likely agree with you on most things. But this is not one of them.

I should add that while I also believe that masks can help, and that vaccines do work, that we are currently enforcing stuff waaaaay too much. And by that, I mean that if we say that vaccines work, and they are available for anyone who wants them, then we should really just open things up and say, "It's up to you how much risk you want to take."

For example, I work at a University who has a vaccine mandate in place for students, faculty, and staff. If you didn't get vaccinated (or didn't get an exception w/ required testing) then you were unenrolled or fired. OK. So, then, why do I still have to put a mask on when I'm walking down the hall to use the bathroom, or I want to train a student in the shop? 95% of students and 92% of employees are vaccinated. The positivity rate of testing is 0.7% We have 2 students in quarantine right now, out of over 30K students. If we're all vaccinated, and we all agree that the vaccines work, then why this silly mask mandate.

Like with gun control, I'm all for measures that are not theater, and that might actually mitigate the problem. But don't open the football stadium to full capacity and then say that we have to wear a mask while on the concourse, but not while cheering in our seats. That's just pointless and annoying.

....and to bring it back around to Walt Disney World, don't say that masks are required in queues and the stores, but not outside, and then require me to wear one when outside in a queue or then pack the Emporium to the point that I can't move. It's theater. It's just Walt Disney World saying that they're doing *something* to try to mitigate the spread while still getting as many people in the parks as possible. I am NOT going to catch COVID while whipping around on Rockin' Roller Coaster. I shouldn't have to wear a mask on it.

Well, I'll probably check out of this discussion now. Thanks for reading.

Let it be known that I love you all, because I believe that you are all good people who believe what you believe because of your individual life experiences, and I can respect that. I think that you each come from a place of wanting our country to be a great place, and that is an honorable thing. And, of course, you all have good taste because of your love of all things Disney (even if you occasionally get grumpy about it).

And, with that, I'm taking my wife away for the weekend. We're gonna go check out some Civil War battlefields that we've never seen.

azcavalier;2532274 wrote: You stated that you seemed to get it more than once, which is disturbing in and of itself. Your body should have produced antibodies. So, you got two different variants of it.

Actually no, it isn't disturbing at all. It was to be expected. Rather you have had the actual virus or have been vaccinated, when you are exposed your immune system mounts a response and you are likely to have mild symptoms. We do in fact have a high level of antibodies. We were recently tested during routine annual blood work. We have actually had light symptoms after being exposed twice since our original infection and illness almost a year and a half ago. The most noticeable symptoms when you are exposed and your immune system is ramping up is a noticeable loss of taste for a day or two and things taste funny and tiredness. It is really no big deal but they are noticeable and are the exact same symptoms most people that have been vaccinated have. We did in fact catch the delta variant this last time and it was while on vacation. Had the light symptoms for maybe two days and kept on rolling.

Being someone who actually caught the virus and had the illness in the very beginning and then watching all of this craziness for the past year and a half has been sort of a strange experience. The most eye opening part of it was witnessing the media and politicians whip so much of the public into such a frenzy they became irrational. For instance, they went out and bought every single roll of toilet paper they could find. That was comical. It is surprising how some talking heads on TV can so easily influence the public into behaving so irrationally.

Four words: It comes from China

baldburke;2532284 wrote: Four words: It comes from China

Three words. Safe and effective.

Three more. Get the vaccine

goofyskier;2532285 wrote: Three words. Safe and effective.

Three more. Get the vaccine

It isn't safe and effective for everyone.

azcavalier;2532276 wrote: Well, I'll probably check out of this discussion now. Thanks for reading.

Let it be known that I love you all, because I believe that you are all good people who believe what you believe because of your individual life experiences, and I can respect that. I think that you each come from a place of wanting our country to be a great place, and that is an honorable thing. And, of course, you all have good taste because of your love of all things Disney (even if you occasionally get grumpy about it).

And, with that, I'm taking my wife away for the weekend. We're gonna go check out some Civil War battlefields that we've never seen.

I hope you are having a great weekend with the wife.